quote:

Originally posted by muzzybear We can't possibly wrap our heads around "eternity" because we as humans have a beginning and end. The fact that God has always existed is something we can't understand fully. The idea of an "afterlife" was created by Satan in Genesis to make God appear to be a liar (even Jesus was in "hades" or hell "sheol" for 3 nights, so how could we as imperfect humans expect to not go to hell? Gehenna was the term for "everlasting destruction" and was the fire pit outside of Jerusalem where garbage was destroyed, hence the "christian" teaching of hellfire and eternal damnation). God's purpose to have the earth filled by righteous humans has not changed, but his "plan" did (to send a saviour in "ransom" - an equal loss for and equal loss - Jesus would give his perfect human life for the perfect human life that Adam lost for us - "I will send a seed (Jesus) and he will bruise you (Satan) in the head... you will bruise him (Jesus) in the heel"). God couldn't just destroy Adam and Eve and begin again, as he had to think about his heavenly organization watching him, and his rightesous leadership had been questioned. God is allowing a period of time for humans to realize that we can't live without him (do governments really solve the problems we have today?). Those who die can look forward to a resurrection to life (or to judgement). He will step in shortly (the time of the end is earmarked in Matthew/Timothy and is a fingerprint of our time) to cleanse the earth of unrightousness. It's up to us to decide who's side we're on.

yadda yadda yadda. Adam and Eve? Are you kidding me? If you believe in that, you might as well believe in Jedi Knights and hobbits and dragons. It's myth in its purest form. Even most Catholics will admit this and my mother's own Anglican minister admitted it. You can come at me with quotations from the Bible all you want...but until somebody PROVES WHY I should believe in that book of fairy tales, I'll never take it seriously.

As for God "stepping in shortly"....yep, you, like millions of people before you, assume you will be alive to witness Judgement Day. The fanatics are always (and have always) been saying it was just around the corner...but it never happens does it? I can't believe how many people this badly brainwashed.

___________________
"No offense, but you're stupid"

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Originally posted by Dj Smitty20 I notice nobody will answer my challenges. I've often encountered this though....any time you pose a set of tough questions, religious people turn a blind eye and a deaf ear. If you press them enough, they'll come back with the same old yim yam about having faith.

Best of luck down in hell

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Originally posted by TheVrk Best of luck down in hell

You do realise that the concept of good and evil was around well before the Bible was written...right?

___________________
"No offense, but you're stupid"

To help answer the poll's Who made Whom question, I will say that yes, there is a God. In response to the poll, I've concluded a resounding, "I'm not sure" (well, no, not really, closest answer though). Human nature is riddled in dualities; good + evil, left + right, awake + asleep, created + creator, and so forth.
Let's go to the 'beginning', the big bang; where all matter clashed instantaneously. Matter is created only when energy has slowed and compressed itself into a tangeable form. Matter is only aged light, photons are only products of aged energy. The only pysically logical way for matter to meet at one point in space and time is under the influence of a black hole. Problably the only celestial sphere that is Not absolutely hollow, that is, devoid of matter. Eventually, the black hole amasses enough matter and energy to develop a hollowed core. The chain reaction that takes place afterwards is known as a supernova. Take a picture of any galaxy for example, or the eye of any hurricain. (There are unknown millions of 'big bangs' happening at this very instant in time.) If matter is only compressed energy, then energy is all around us. Is not the same said about God? Who gave birth to this Foetal energy? *That is the absolute 'velocity' of energy and motion. (Define 0 then Equate Eternity) It cannot be God(dess) since it is an entity and must have some understanding of sentience; the idea of pure energy having a conscience may not be completely impossible, however it is mind boggling to consider otherwise. The same be said about any absolute origin of this energy.
The notion of a Creator was dreamt up by some human, a sentient being that can consciously percieve it's surroundings in 3 1/2 Dimentions. Width, Length, Depth, (You, yes you in the back with the glowsticks, stop that gigglin') with that half dimension being Time. We cannot give an answer for everything and similar to lemmings or sheep, humanity is dependant on having a leader. The answer to this is God. With a focal point being named, the mapping of humanity had gained some footing.
In review; Matter is only a part of the spectrum of energy just as colour is on the spectrum of light. The conscious mind being part of the human essence and humanity being a part of God. Heaven being only a part of the spectrum of Hell.
Beyond conscious thought rests a 4+ dimensional perception. Humanity has hunted this plane under the watchful eye of hallucigens. Psilocybin, tetrahydrocannabinol, lysergic acid diethylamide, mescaline, dimethyltryptamine, etc. What the shamen found under such forced journeys was the 'Voice of God' when scientifically, it was just a sharp change in the angle in which the world is percieved. Similarly, the same also happens under extreme strain such as exhaustion or hunger; near-death, deep dreamstate, any sub/super conscious state for that matter. We hold a lot of value in worth and in saying that, what good is it to be sentient if our creator isn't the same?
The notion of a god creating the universe, that would be of a god that is everything and everywhere. Stating that that energy is sentient is to say that all within the grasp of the universe can realize the significance of the Self. So, yeah, God created Man, however is this example, God doesn't realize itself, and therefore does not have a soul. (Shit's gonna hit the fan with that one...hehehe oops)
The idea of Man creating God, is equally self defeating since such a god was devised to answer "How am I/are we?" I'll go as far as to say that 'our' God(s) is the sum of all the life on the Earth. God exists within all of us just the same as one person can exist within everyone. That light at the end of the tunnel when someones dies is the triggered memory of the first view of light (birth) piggybacked on a mind that is accelerating to unimaginable heights. I won't even consider making guesses on what happens at this point. So, yeah, Man created God but such a god would have eventually have to be evolve to be essentially, purely human in nature. In otherwords, basically, God Is Man. Dogma on the otherhand, is definately man-made and has no place in this discussion.
So there's my answer, Neither and Both
I do not beleive in a God, however I am highly spiritual. Giving anything a name debases it's value as it is in our nature to label and define everything that we encounter. That's where I stand. Who can really say where that first spark of consciousness came to be? The important thing is that it did. Any time trying to discover its origins robs precious seconds/decades that we have to be alive. All we can do is to 'be' and the rest will be realized through the gradual gain of wisdom. A lot more can be said, but I'm tired.

quote:

Originally posted by Dj Smitty20 You do realise that the concept of good and evil was around well before the Bible was written...right?

Of course

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Originally posted by Dj Smitty20 yadda yadda yadda. Adam and Eve? Are you kidding me? If you believe in that, you might as well believe in Jedi Knights and hobbits and dragons. It's myth in its purest form. Even most Catholics will admit this and my mother's own Anglican minister admitted it. You can come at me with quotations from the Bible all you want...but until somebody PROVES WHY I should believe in that book of fairy tales, I'll never take it seriously. As for God "stepping in shortly"....yep, you, like millions of people before you, assume you will be alive to witness Judgement Day. The fanatics are always (and have always) been saying it was just around the corner...but it never happens does it? I can't believe how many people this badly brainwashed.

The theory of evolution is a new theory, created to prove the "non-existence of God", and in fact if we did evolve, and "survival of the fittest" was true, then what's with the big brains? The idea of gaining things as you require them for survival doesn't fit in with that. And wouldn't there be a TREMENDOUS amount of physical evidence left behind to prove this theory? At best, it can be proven that there were different unique species, but nothing that truly "evolved" into humankind today. We are created unique as humans, and were given the ability to choose our own path. You have yours. I have mine.

I've been to the British museum, and studied for two years why the bible can be seen as given from a higher source. In it, scientific unproven facts (until our day) are mentioned. Such as "the skin of the teeth (yes, your teeth do have a "skin"), and the cow chewing it's cud (the regurgitation process was only scientifically studied in the past few hundred years). Even the reference to the "sphere" or "circle" of the earth would have been a highly unpopular belief in bible times, as it was thought the earth was flat (and held up by turtles and such). There is much physical evidence (and geographic) to prove that these bible "stories" really happened. Check it out for yourself.

___________________
"WEMF is...." and I can't remember the rest because I didn't write it down.
- Blackness at WEMF 2007

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Originally posted by muzzybear The theory of evolution is a new theory, created to prove the "non-existence of God",

Thats crazy. The theory of evolution was not created to "disprove" the existence of god.

it was created to explain how we came about (i dont believe for a second that it was created in an attempt to actively dis-prove another theory)

it came about indepenantly and on its own bc it just makes sense and it logical (IMO).

-jem-

___________________
TECHNO IS THE BEST NOISE ON EARTH.
Save Techno - Stop Minimal / Tech-House

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Originally posted by Jem_hadar Thats crazy. The theory of evolution was not created to "disprove" the existence of god. it was created to explain how we came about (i dont believe for a second that it was created in an attempt to actively dis-prove another theory) it came about indepenantly and on its own bc it just makes sense and it logical (IMO). -jem-

Have you actually read any biographies on Darwin and his theories? He found a fossil (in the Galapagos?) and tried to "explain" it to fit his revolutionary idea of evolution. Hence, many biographers claim that he was trying to "disprove" the existance of God. Others feel he was trying to use science to explain how God moved things along. Depends on what sources you read.

___________________
"WEMF is...." and I can't remember the rest because I didn't write it down.
- Blackness at WEMF 2007

quote:

Originally posted by muzzybear The theory of evolution is a new theory, created to prove the "non-existence of God", and in fact if we did evolve, and "survival of the fittest" was true, then what's with the big brains? The idea of gaining things as you require them for survival doesn't fit in with that. And wouldn't there be a TREMENDOUS amount of physical evidence left behind to prove this theory? At best, it can be proven that there were different unique species, but nothing that truly "evolved" into humankind today. We are created unique as humans, and were given the ability to choose our own path. You have yours. I have mine. I've been to the British museum, and studied for two years why the bible can be seen as given from a higher source. In it, scientific unproven facts (until our day) are mentioned. Such as "the skin of the teeth (yes, your teeth do have a "skin"), and the cow chewing it's cud (the regurgitation process was only scientifically studied in the past few hundred years). Even the reference to the "sphere" or "circle" of the earth would have been a highly unpopular belief in bible times, as it was thought the earth was flat (and held up by turtles and such). There is much physical evidence (and geographic) to prove that these bible "stories" really happened. Check it out for yourself.

There is a TREMENDOUS amount of evidence left behind that proves evolution...and not just with humans. Look up any other animal as well....birds especially. Observing Birds in the extreme southern hemisphere is actually what led Darwin to his conclusions. Bigger brains indicates greater intelligence for fuck's sake. If you look at various forms of ape to human skeletons, brain cavity size gradually increases over time. At best, it's a solid explanation with a few minor issues that have yet to be solved, whereas your 1st Century Lord of the Rings has too many holes way too deep to fill.

There's evidence to support that Moses split the Red Sea? I guess they found Noah's Ark recently eh? Yeah...and some "scientists" just found Adam and Eve's remains.

Is it fun living in fantasy world?

___________________
"No offense, but you're stupid"

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Originally posted by Dj Smitty20 There is a TREMENDOUS amount of evidence left behind that proves evolution...and not just with humans. Look up any other animal as well....birds especially. Observing Birds in the extreme southern hemisphere is actually what led Darwin to his conclusions. Bigger brains indicates greater intelligence for fuck's sake. If you look at various forms of ape to human skeletons, brain cavity size gradually increases over time. At best, it's a solid explanation with a few minor issues that have yet to be solved, whereas your 1st Century Lord of the Rings has too many holes way too deep to fill. There's evidence to support that Moses split the Red Sea? I guess they found Noah's Ark recently eh? Yeah...and some "scientists" just found Adam and Eve's remains. Is it fun living in fantasy world?

And all of those fossils proved the existance of many different species in the same categories.

No need to be snarky, either... I could ask you if it's fun living in denial?

___________________
"WEMF is...." and I can't remember the rest because I didn't write it down.
- Blackness at WEMF 2007

quote:

Originally posted by muzzybear And all of those fossils proved the existance of many different species in the same categories. No need to be snarky, either... I could ask you if it's fun living in denial?

The problem with people like you who disregard evolution is that you can't think of it in anything but simple terms. It's not as easy as ape turned into man and here we are. Look at apes today....we are 99% the same (how do you explain that by the way?). It took millions of years to separate that one degree and in the process, some species reached a point of evolution and stopped along the line. Changing environments had a lot to do with that....the species isn't going to change or adapt when it doesn't need to.

Look at skin colour. The hottest place in the Earth (Africa) and along the equator, the people have the darkest skin for sun protection. But to the south and to the north (Europe) people's skin colour lightens because there is less sun. Ever wondered why a white person burns like crazy in the sun, but a black person (one of my friends for example) can be out all day and get nothing?

If you just pull back and think of it in LOGICAL terms, evolution makes the most sense. How can anyone who was not brainwashed and raised in a religious environment accept an explanation that amounts to magic spells and myths?

___________________
"No offense, but you're stupid"

quote:

Originally posted by Dj Smitty20 The problem with people like you who disregard evolution is that you can't think of it in anything but simple terms. It's not as easy as ape turned into man and here we are. Look at apes today....we are 99% the same (how do you explain that by the way?). It took millions of years to separate that one degree and in the process, some species reached a point of evolution and stopped along the line. Changing environments had a lot to do with that....the species isn't going to change or adapt when it doesn't need to. Look at skin colour. The hottest place in the Earth (Africa) and along the equator, the people have the darkest skin for sun protection. But to the south and to the north (Europe) people's skin colour lightens because there is less sun. Ever wondered why a white person burns like crazy in the sun, but a black person (one of my friends for example) can be out all day and get nothing? If you just pull back and think of it in LOGICAL terms, evolution makes the most sense. How can anyone who was not brainwashed and raised in a religious environment accept an explanation that amounts to magic spells and myths?

I think that a lot of people wouldn't see a problem with me (it's very small to have to degrade someone else's ideals to make yourself feel right). I'm very grateful that when it comes down to brass tacks that you're not my judge. And I feel sorry for you that you're so bitter towards people who have beliefs that are different from yours.

___________________
"WEMF is...." and I can't remember the rest because I didn't write it down.
- Blackness at WEMF 2007