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Originally posted by emc^2 Religion of Islam does not acknowledge co-existance with anyone but of Islam. If you haven't done so, read some of the quotes posted at the wiki link above. Hence the difference.

those are just quoted from the Quran. Yes on their own they may sound harsh but you have to read the rest of the story to understand them.


i'll do some reading up on those quotes and post what i find.

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thesuperglo - Flaming Popsicle [June 2007 Promo](full-on/dark/goa)

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Originally posted by superglo those are just quoted from the Quran. Yes on their own they may sound harsh but you have to read the rest of the story to understand them.

^

for sure , the exact translation , doesnt make sense , and it is far from the intended meaning ...

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Actively Muslim >>> Jerusalem , Palestine !

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Originally posted by ronk I just want to post these poll results: 48.1% of the palestinians oppose a peace settlement with Israel. 76.2 of them think they don't have a peace partner in Israel. 50.6% of them think Hamas should maintain its position on the elimination of Israel. however, 76.7% of them support a cease fire with Israel. source: http://www.neareastconsulting.com/

First of all, thank you for that excellent link (I shall certainly be keeping my eye on their polls!!)

Secondly, your figure says half of Palestinians support the distruction of Israel, which means the other half don't, which backs up my point of refering to all Palestinians as not sharing this view.

Thirdly, your link shows a constant 63% - 73% (ish) opposed to Hamas' goal of eliminating Israel until this war in Lebanon and Gaza kicked off. So Israeli action has caused an increase in Palestinians wanting Israel wiped off the map, not brainwashing or propaganda - Israeli action. Something for you to think about no?

I'm not even going to go into breaking those results down by region, wealth, etc, which also give you some clues as to how to reduce further this support for Hamas' goals, which would make an interesting thread in itself

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Originally posted by George Smiley Secondly, your figure says half of Palestinians support the distruction of Israel, which means the other half don't, which backs up my point of refering to all Palestinians as not sharing this view.

half the palestinian population is a LOT. it is a group of people who wish for the destruction of Israel. I wish those 50% the same. and don't preach to me this bullshit about understanding them.

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Originally posted by George Smiley Thirdly, your link shows a constant 63% - 73% (ish) opposed to Hamas' goal of eliminating Israel until this war in Lebanon and Gaza kicked off. So Israeli action has caused an increase in Palestinians wanting Israel wiped off the map, not brainwashing or propaganda - Israeli action. Something for you to think about no?

blame Israel, why not. what you fail to realize is that there would not be an Israeli action if Hamas/Hezbollah didn't kidnap and kill our soldiers (you seem to always forget the reasons, time after time). and if the palestinians really opposed Hamas, they would protest against their leaders' actions, like the lefties in Israel protested today if I'm not mistaken (I'm not a lefty, by the way).
something for you to think about no?

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Face facts, the figure of 50% is due to Israel's actions...

If you can offer me an alternative explantion as to why the (fairly constant) figure has just shot up recently then I'm all ears, but you're not gonna be able to offer one are you?

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Originally posted by George Smiley Face facts, the figure of 50% is due to Israel's actions... If you can offer me an alternative explantion as to why the (fairly constant) figure has just shot up recently then I'm all ears, but you're not gonna be able to offer one are you?

Israel's action were in retaliation to Hamas actions. before Hamas actions there was a long period of quiet as far as I recall.
face reasons, the figure of 50% is ultimately due to Hamas actions.

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Originally posted by ronk Israel's action were in retaliation to Hamas actions. before Hamas actions there was a long period of quiet as far as I recall. face reasons, the figure of 50% is ultimately due to Hamas actions.

So Palestinians hate Israel because Hamas kidnapped that soldier?

No matter how much you try and twist it, Israeli actions have caused this current level of hatred. Israel did not have to do anything following the kidnapping of that soldier. Instead, they chose to punish the entire population of Gaza for the actions of a few...

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Originally posted by George Smiley So Palestinians hate Israel because Hamas kidnapped that soldier?

if you look at the big picture, then yes.

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Originally posted by George Smiley No matter how much you try and twist it, Israeli actions have caused this current level of hatred. Israel did not have to do anything following the kidnapping of that soldier. Instead, they chose to punish the entire population of Gaza for the actions of a few...

what are talking about? "Israel did not have to do anything"?
there was a long period of quiet, most of the palestinians wanted peace (according to news, and the polls), but then Hamas abducted a soldier from an Israeli military base and tried to kill more soldiers.
they were on the verge of peace, their long awaited peace settlement with us (that would eventually lead to the creation of their state), and their elected leaders ruined their opportunity. don't you think they should have done something to prevent Israel's retaliation? like, maybe, I don't know, demand the release of the soldier?!
if the majority of the palestinians, that same majority that wanted peace, would have done that - I'm pretty sure Hamas would have released the soldier (after all, they don't want to lose their position as leaders) and IDF wouldn't have needed to retaliate. the abduction led to the escalation.

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Originally posted by ronk if you look at the big picture, then yes.

I know you're not stupid, so I shall take that silly comment as you agreeing with my point

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what are talking about? "Israel did not have to do anything"? there was a long period of quiet, most of the palestinians wanted peace (according to news, and the polls), but then Hamas abducted a soldier from an Israeli military base and tried to kill more soldiers.

But not before Israel broke the cease fire by the beach shelling and the targetted assassination that followed (that aslo took out innocent Palestinians)

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they were on the verge of peace, their long awaited peace settlement with us (that would eventually lead to the creation of their state), and their elected leaders ruined their opportunity. don't you think they should have done something to prevent Israel's retaliation? like, maybe, I don't know, demand the release of the soldier?!

Hamas and Fatah were on the verge of reaching a compromise to recognise Israel. Factions of Hamas did not want that compromise and kidnapped that soldier cos they knew what Israel's response would be. Now they either simply never wanted to ever make peace with Israel, or those two events listed above spurred them into action, but Israel's actions prove they also have no intention of peace either

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if the majority of the palestinians, that same majority that wanted peace, would have done that - I'm pretty sure Hamas would have released the soldier (after all, they don't want to lose their position as leaders) and IDF wouldn't have needed to retaliate. the abduction led to the escalation.

Just like the hawks in the Israeli government wanted. They must have shot their load in their pants when they heard the good news about the kidnapping so they could start bombing the Palestinians again. The actions Israel took were NOT typical of a "rescue operation" - do you agree or disagree?

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Originally posted by George Smiley I know you're not stupid, so I shall take that silly comment as you agreeing with my point

I'm not agreeing with you on that point.

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Originally posted by George Smiley But not before Israel broke the cease fire by the beach shelling and the targetted assassination that followed (that aslo took out innocent Palestinians)

the beach shelling wasn't done by IDF.
and besides - Hamas offers to renew truce with Israel (06.15.06). so it really doesn't matter to the point, does it?

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Originally posted by George Smiley Hamas and Fatah were on the verge of reaching a compromise to recognise Israel. Factions of Hamas did not want that compromise and kidnapped that soldier cos they knew what Israel's response would be. Now they either simply never wanted to ever make peace with Israel, or those two events listed above spurred them into action, but Israel's actions prove they also have no intention of peace either

no, Israel did have peace intentions - until the abduction. otherwise we wouldn't pull out from Gaza/WB.

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Originally posted by George Smiley Just like the hawks in the Israeli government wanted. They must have shot their load in their pants when they heard the good news about the kidnapping so they could start bombing the Palestinians again. The actions Israel took were NOT typical of a "rescue operation" - do you agree or disagree?

you really think that's what some of the Israeli politicians had in mind that time?

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Originally posted by ronk I'm not agreeing with you on that point.

Why not? You provided a link to give me some hard figures to back up your point, you forgot to read the rest of your own link, unlike me, who found hard figures to PROVE that it is the actions of Israel that have led to an increase in support for Hamas' policy of Israeli destruction. You then say as a reply, that no, it was not the actions of Israel that led to an increase in hatred, but that Palestinians hate Israel because Hamas kidnapped a soldier!!! How exactly do you expect me to take that seriously? There is only one possible explantion and that is you have no argument against being presented with HARD FIGURES and you are trying to save face. Grow some bollocks for fucks sake and just be a man about it

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the beach shelling wasn't done by IDF. and besides - Hamas offers to renew truce with Israel (06.15.06). so it really doesn't matter to the point, does it?

I am well aware of the Israeli and Palestinian propaganda surrounding the incident. What is telling tho is that the Israeli army was ordered to stop shelling...doesn't sound like Israel had been observing anything like a cease fire to me! What do you think?

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no, Israel did have peace intentions - until the abduction. otherwise we wouldn't pull out from Gaza/WB.

The pull out from Gaza, as we both know (and as you openly support), is to strengthen it's grip on the West Bank. Those settlements need to go too or any "pull out" is worthless

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you really think that's what some of the Israeli politicians had in mind that time?

You tell me what they had in mind then?

I asked you a question: were the actions of Israel charcteristic of a typical "rescue" operation?

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Originally posted by George Smiley Why not? You provided a link to give me some hard figures to back up your point, you forgot to read the rest of your own link, unlike me, who found hard figures to PROVE that it is the actions of Israel that have led to an increase in support for Hamas' policy of Israeli destruction. You then say as a reply, that no, it was not the actions of Israel that led to an increase in hatred, but that Palestinians hate Israel because Hamas kidnapped a soldier!!! How exactly do you expect me to take that seriously? There is only one possible explantion and that is you have no argument against being presented with HARD FIGURES and you are trying to save face. Grow some bollocks for fucks sake and just be a man about it

first of all, the one who didn't prove points by figures here is you. you said there is a constant of 63%-73% who oppose Hamas' goal of eliminating Israel (till the war broke). that is not true, the polls results range from 20.9% to 62.9%, when in the month before the war broke off (June) 53.5% opposed Hamas' goal.
second of all, the polls hard figures didn't prove that it was Israel's actions that led to an increase in support for Hamas' policy. you chose to interpret them like that. you again forget what were the reasons behind Israel's retaliation (I'll help you: the kidnapping and killing of soldiers). the polls show that 73.8% of the palestinians supported a peace settlement with Israel before the kidnapping. you also said that only factions of Hamas did not want that peace settlement, and kidnapped that soldier because they knew what Israel's response would be. well if the palestinians really wanted peace I say they should've done something to prevent the (pretty much predicted) Israeli retaliation, like oppose those factions or protest against them. but wait a second, why has Hamas cooperated with those factions, instead of returning the soldier and completing the peace process?
well, according to the polls, the month before the kidnapping happened the majority of the palestinians supported Fatah (34.8%) while Hamas support reduced to 27.1%.
so I think Hamas thought they should do something to regain their support, and they kidnapped Shalit knowing that Israel's retaliation would reduce the support for peace settlement, and increase the support in them.
so if you look at the big picture, Hamas caused (apparently deliberately) a retaliation from Israel after its troops kidnapped a soldier and killed two more. that led to more hatred towards Israel from the palestinians and more support from them to Hamas and its goal - eliminate Israel.

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Originally posted by George Smiley I am well aware of the Israeli and Palestinian propaganda surrounding the incident. What is telling tho is that the Israeli army was ordered to stop shelling...doesn't sound like Israel had been observing anything like a cease fire to me! What do you think?

I think you should read the article again.

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Originally posted by George Smiley The pull out from Gaza, as we both know (and as you openly support), is to strengthen it's grip on the West Bank. Those settlements need to go too or any "pull out" is worthless

well that's only your opinion. I know that settlements from the West Bank have been evacuated - fact.

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Originally posted by George Smiley You tell me what they had in mind then? I asked you a question: were the actions of Israel charcteristic of a typical "rescue" operation?

I can't really tell, but even the extremists aren't that twisted.
as for your question, it's unfair because it's a complex situation. Israel wants both to rescue Shalit and also to "teach Hamas a lesson" - that we will not tolerate such actions in the future (most people forget that two soldiers were also killed in that incident, and that Kassam rockets also have been launched into Israel at that time).



edited - something I forgot to add.

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Last edited by ronk on Aug-11-2006 at 23:12