quote:

Originally posted by Lebezniatnikov Ayn Rand is the biggest atheist I can think of, and she was certainly no communist.

lol why did you tell me that? I never said Atheism = communism

quote:

Originally posted by Psy-T

Yes, but saying that someone wants to have people remember them fondly doesnt make sense to the naturalist. Its just a bunch of neurons firing randomly that happens to be interpreted by you as something called a wish about some abstract chemical net you have in your brain that you associate with memory.

Its not a reason in the epistemological sense...its equally as valid as religion as a method of morality as far as youre putting it.

I was saying the naturalist almost views life fatalistically in the sense we have no way to respond to our stimuli and brain patters other than the way we do. It was set in motion, we are along for the ride, why worry about it?

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Originally posted by Orbax No No...you didnt answer the question. I didnt ask what I was doing, I asked which generalization I stated (you have to be explicit here) that you disagree with. I think the issue is you perceived a generalization and then projected it onto me. Because I made no statement as such in my original post.

Which generalisation? This one:

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Originally posted by Orbax Cant figure out why we hate the middle east... http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/6557679.stm oh wait...shit like that.

So, basically, you're saying that "we" hate the middle east (millions of people that have nothing to do with the article) because a few muderers got away with their crime.

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Originally posted by Gauss Which generalisation? This one: So, basically, you're saying that "we" hate the middle east (millions of people that have nothing to do with the article) because a few muderers got away with their crime.

Actually I used an example to demonstrate widespread corruption at the highest levels of the judiciary. This isnt the first time nor the last this stuff has happened at the supreme court level.

This widespread system of injustice is among the chief complaints raised against the region.

You have to read the whole sentence I typed because words such as "like" change the meaning. I know language can be tough sometimes but lets not jump at every missed nuance.

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Originally posted by Orbax Yes, but saying that someone wants to have people remember them fondly doesnt make sense to the naturalist. Its just a bunch of neurons firing randomly that happens to be interpreted by you as something called a wish about some abstract chemical net you have in your brain that you associate with memory. Its not a reason in the epistemological sense...its equally as valid as religion as a method of morality as far as youre putting it. I was saying the naturalist almost views life fatalistically in the sense we have no way to respond to our stimuli and brain patters other than the way we do. It was set in motion, we are along for the ride, why worry about it?

because we have control over our actions, or at the very least, an illusion of control - even the naturalists amongst us!

___________________
People who own my ass: Citric Acid, Boomer187, Tribu, Sand Leaper,
Jackson, venomX, jamie, Renegade, Konjin, Akridrot, Miss Bliss.
Psy-T - Down The Rabbit Hole (400minute long acid set)

quote:

Originally posted by Orbax Yes, but saying that someone wants to have people remember them fondly doesnt make sense to the naturalist. Its just a bunch of neurons firing randomly that happens to be interpreted by you as something called a wish about some abstract chemical net you have in your brain that you associate with memory. Its not a reason in the epistemological sense...its equally as valid as religion as a method of morality as far as youre putting it. I was saying the naturalist almost views life fatalistically in the sense we have no way to respond to our stimuli and brain patters other than the way we do. It was set in motion, we are along for the ride, why worry about it?

That's a pretty extreme interpretation of the advances made in biopsychology. I disagree that people involved in this area are deterministic; if anything they emphasis the non-deterministic nature of things because most psychological processes are a blend of social pressures and natural predispositions. Just because we are coming to understand that most brain activity is boiled down to chemical and electrical exchanges doesn't mean that the result of those exchanges aren't extremely rich and complex. There are still many things to be understood about brain development and activity and each step gets us closer to understanding, even if it is just understanding what is not happening.

I don't agree that acknowledging that our brain doesn't have some sort of mystical matter infused in it and that consciousness is derived from such basic reactions leads to complete chaos. Our consciousness is what drives us, and our understanding that things don't have to be the way they are is what prevents us from just being meandering beasts.

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Poetry>Byron//Blog>TheMean

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Orbax At that point you kind of crossed the rubicon and you might as well lay siege to Rome

I dunno...if you take in social pressures (which are based of of previous social pressure ad infinitum) and mix them with the wiring of a brain, isnt it a guaranteed outcome? The only thing missing in the equation are what all of the variables are. Once you took every variable and understood it dont you think youd eventually be able to say "Person will do X". What disposes you to think that humans have any control whatsoever over what they are going to do. Genes have the instruction, the DNA carries it out...the world provides the stimuli.

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Originally posted by Orbax I dunno...if you take in social pressures (which are based of of previous social pressure ad infinitum) and mix them with the wiring of a brain, isnt it a guaranteed outcome? The only thing missing in the equation are what all of the variables are. Once you took every variable and understood it dont you think youd eventually be able to say "Person will do X". What disposes you to think that humans have any control whatsoever over what they are going to do. Genes have the instruction, the DNA carries it out...the world provides the stimuli.

Hehe you're thinking like an economist. The thing is not all variables can be cuantified and not all players are rational, i.e. people dont always do what they're supposed to do to maximize the benefit of an outcome. All behaviors have more than one outcome depending on a plethora of interactions going on. Only in theory could you measure all variables. And each person would be different. That's the beauty of the brain, experiences shapes and molds everything in your behavior, interplaying with your predispositions. It would be so hard to take everything into account, but in theory it would be possible. There is some control. You can stop things, you can change your attitudes, you can move around. Granted, not with everything, but with most. There is a bit of determinism but it's bound to happen with any system. It happens to a degree with religion too. I wouldn't say that it is necessary deterministic though.

EDIT: Even if slightly deterministic the system is so dynamic (i.e. everything depends on so many variables and is so interlinked) that one change somewhere can create a ripple effect and everything would need to be remeasured again. And the problem is that even measuring causes changes. It's a bit mind boggling

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Poetry>Byron//Blog>TheMean

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Orbax At that point you kind of crossed the rubicon and you might as well lay siege to Rome

youre assuming people have the ability to override their genes instruction though.

i.e. if we knew what all the genes instructions were it wouldnt be about "persons" it would be figuring out the manual for each human. Then wed have our variables.

quote:

Originally posted by Orbax I dunno...if you take in social pressures (which are based of of previous social pressure ad infinitum) and mix them with the wiring of a brain, isnt it a guaranteed outcome? The only thing missing in the equation are what all of the variables are. Once you took every variable and understood it dont you think youd eventually be able to say "Person will do X". What disposes you to think that humans have any control whatsoever over what they are going to do. Genes have the instruction, the DNA carries it out...the world provides the stimuli.

the fact that i can choose what actions to take at which points at which ways gives me a sense of control, whether it is illusory or not is irrelevant unless you can demonstrate a difference between the real and the illusory.

___________________
People who own my ass: Citric Acid, Boomer187, Tribu, Sand Leaper,
Jackson, venomX, jamie, Renegade, Konjin, Akridrot, Miss Bliss.
Psy-T - Down The Rabbit Hole (400minute long acid set)

quote:

Originally posted by Orbax youre assuming people have the ability to override their genes instruction though.

As I said, most of them, not all. Some determine the broad outline of things, and may not be changed, but the details can be changed. If it were a purely deterministic system you could not change anything. You can be greatly inclined to being gay by your genes, but how you live your life and how you deal with your inclinations and it's interaction with social life is controlled by you. Obviously you can't control everything in your life, but that doesnt mean you don't have enough flexibility to live your life how you want.

Edit: The thing is it's not genes alone man. Behavior has been shown to even shape your brain differently. So behavior does affect the genetic component in your body. Even if you decoded all the genes, you still wouldn't be able to figure out the behaviors because of the massive amounts of other variables.

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Poetry>Byron//Blog>TheMean

quote:

Orbax At that point you kind of crossed the rubicon and you might as well lay siege to Rome