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Originally posted by Clovis So basically, you won't put YOUR life on the line for it, but you think sending other people to do it is ok. The folks who died over there found the time for it. Many of them signed up to pay for college...I'll bet they were more than happy to go to Iraq and die in the name of spreading democracy. If you wouldn't seriously consider trading your life for it then you are a hypocrite, plain and simple. Think about it. What would be going through your mind the moment before life escapes you somewhere in Iraq after your hummer got hit by an IED.

All hail to Clovis, the judge, jury, and executioner of who is a hypocrite and why. Enough already with your moral high ground bullshit. One can only be right to say the Iraq war was justified if he or she would die for that cause themselves? You can shove that sanctimonious garbage up your ass. First of all, I said I won't know until some time passes if going into Iraq was justified... not until hindsight, however short or long, plays its part. If it does become a sustainable democracy on its own and are our allies in that region, then yes I'll agree it was justified. Secondly, they know what they are signing up for as part of the whole package. Nobody at the recruitment office says, "You know, it's peace time... if war rolls around, don't sweat it." It's a risk they consciously sign up for. I also believe in freedom of choice for abortion (yes, even as a republican)... does that mean I should be willing to have a wife or a daughter have an abortion to justify my belief?

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Originally posted by The17sss One can only be right to say the Iraq war was justified if he or she would die for that cause themselves?

I'd say that actually sounds like a pretty good benchmark when it's a war we're talking about. Think about it... WWII, justified. Vietnam? Eh... Iraq? Would you really put your life on the line for that cause, whatever it might actually be?

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not until hindsight, however short or long, plays its part.

So no action can be considered wrong until history judges it as such? Well hell, that sounds like a presidential carte blanche if I've ever heard one.

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If it does become a sustainable democracy on its own and are our allies in that region, then yes I'll agree it was justified.

I'll only point out two things here, though an entire essay could be written on the absurdity of that comment. First, there is absolutely no evidence to suggest that Iraq is on a path to either one of those goals. And second, shouldn't we ask ourselves whether a conflict is justified before we undertake it rather than merely when reflecting about its outcome? Hindsight is always 20-20 -- what makes a great man or woman is the ability to make moral judgments and decisions in the present. Wishy-washiness does not a good foreign policy make.

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Secondly, they know what they are signing up for as part of the whole package. Nobody at the recruitment office says, "You know, it's peace time... if war rolls around, don't sweat it." It's a risk they consciously sign up for. I also believe in freedom of choice for abortion (yes, even as a republican)... does that mean I should be willing to have a wife or a daughter have an abortion to justify my belief?

No, but you should be willing to have a wife or daughter capable of making that choice as your belief allows. Clovis didn't say you have to do it, he said you have to be willing to.

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Originally posted by The17sss All hail to Clovis, the judge, jury, and executioner of who is a hypocrite and why. Enough already with your moral high ground bullshit. One can only be right to say the Iraq war was justified if he or she would die for that cause themselves? You can shove that sanctimonious garbage up your ass. First of all, I said I won't know until some time passes if going into Iraq was justified... not until hindsight, however short or long, plays its part. If it does become a sustainable democracy on its own and are our allies in that region, then yes I'll agree it was justified. Secondly, they know what they are signing up for as part of the whole package. Nobody at the recruitment office says, "You know, it's peace time... if war rolls around, don't sweat it." It's a risk they consciously sign up for. I also believe in freedom of choice for abortion (yes, even as a republican)... does that mean I should be willing to have a wife or a daughter have an abortion to justify my belief?

Invading a country so as to force them to adopt your method of government is not justifiable war under any commonly accept Just War theories, or under international. Finally, I you with this...

"I have indicated it [Operation Iraqi Freedom] was not in conformity with the UN charter from our point of view, from the charter point of view, it [Operation Iraqi Freedom] was illegal." -UN Secretary General Kofi Annan (2004)

You already have hindsight my friend... Shoot now, ask questions later is really what you're telling us..

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Originally posted by Lebezniatnikov I'd say that actually sounds like a pretty good benchmark when it's a war we're talking about. Think about it... WWII, justified. Vietnam? Eh... Iraq? Would you really put your life on the line for that cause, whatever it might actually be? So no action can be considered wrong until history judges it as such? Well hell, that sounds like a presidential carte blanche if I've ever heard one. I'll only point out two things here, though an entire essay could be written on the absurdity of that comment. First, there is absolutely no evidence to suggest that Iraq is on a path to either one of those goals. And second, shouldn't we ask ourselves whether a conflict is justified before we undertake it rather than merely when reflecting about its outcome? Hindsight is always 20-20 -- what makes a great man or woman is the ability to make moral judgments and decisions in the present. Wishy-washiness does not a good foreign policy make. No, but you should be willing to have a wife or daughter capable of making that choice as your belief allows. Clovis didn't say you have to do it, he said you have to be willing to.

I didn't say "no action can be considered wrong unless history judges it so." I'm talking about this one issue, and I'm saying I can't personally say at this point in time it was worth it. ANd, unless you've been living under a rock, there's plenty of evidence to suggest Iraq is well on its way to becoming a sustainable deomcracy. Just ask the Messiah, Barry O:

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After meeting with Mr. Maliki, Mr. Obama met with Mr. Hashimi in his spacious, ornate house in the Green Zone for about 45 minutes. Beforehand, Mr. Obama said he was “pleased with the progress taking place” in Iraq and said that it was his impression that among Iraqis there was “more optimism about what is happening. You see the activity taking place, the people in the shops, the traffic on the streets, clearly there’s been an enormous improvement,” he said.

I respect what you say about the ability to make moral decisions in the present being a mark of a moral person. I, however, did not make any decisions about going into Iraq... I'm just critiquing them

Last edited by The17sss on Jul-22-2008 at 04:10

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Originally posted by Krypton You already have hindsight my friend... Shoot now, ask questions later is really what you're telling us..

Definitely not saying that. I had nothing to do with the decision making process. I'm being asked if I think what happened was justified, and I'm saying I don't know.

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Originally posted by The17sss ANd, unless you've been living under a rock, there's plenty of evidence to suggest Iraq is well on its way to becoming a sustainable deomcracy. Just ask the Messiah, Barry O:

And that's something I disagree with Obama on. There's very little evidence to suggest that Iraq is making any real progress at all.

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does it count if my brother just got back from there after 15 months, as the head of Military Police in Baghdad working directly with the Iraqi generals in training their police force, and says there's a lot more improvement than when he arrived?

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Originally posted by The17sss Definitely not saying that. I had nothing to do with the decision making process. I'm being asked if I think what happened was justified, and I'm saying I don't know.

And you think its ok to send people to die for a cause you don't know is justified? Thats terrible imo.

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Originally posted by ******** Seplling don't demonstrate intelligence and educatoin - knowing does.

No, I'm saying I don't know yet if I can say it was justified... there's a difference. I guess I'm just a depraved person with a black heart and no soul.

Edit: In the beginning I wasn't thinking "fuck yeah! Get that Iraqi ass! I don't know if this is a good idea, but I sure hope it works out." I've gone through this whole process with nervous feelings because of family and friends going over there. I want to be able to say one day, "yes, it was worth it."

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Originally posted by The17sss does it count if my brother just got back from there after 15 months, as the head of Military Police in Baghdad working directly with the Iraqi generals in training their police force, and says there's a lot more improvement than when he arrived?

I'm just looking for concrete examples, cause I haven't heard any. Violence against Americans is down, but there's conflicting evidence about whether the Surge (which is really an escalation since troop levels are still at an elevated level) really had anything more than a secondary impact.

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Progress in this is almost like the progress of someone who was beaten within an inch of their life and is now learning how to walk again.

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I've never been able to eat a whole baby.
Kill the women. Eat the children.
It's just one of those days where you want to bend over everyone you know and kiss their ass goodbye with a big sideways boot.

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