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Originally posted by The17sss Obama playing games with U.S. troops for his own political gain? Sounds like he's been advocating troops to stay in Iraq till 2012, while pretending like he wants troops out now to satisfy his lunitic fringe:

I don't think the desire to withdraw from Iraq is a "lunatic fringe" issue.

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http://www.nypost.com/seven/0915200...awal_129150.htm Hypocrisy isn’t the issue here, it’s the interference of Obama in military and diplomatic affairs. Just on diplomacy, interfering with the United States in its diplomatic efforts is a Logan Act violation. Interfering with war policy treads on even more serious ground, especially since the primary motivation appears to be winning an election without regard to whether it damages our ability to fight the enemy or drives wedges between us and our ally, the elected representative government in Baghdad.

Do we have more than simply a a newspaper column to make these accusations? You should know columns are opinion driven.

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Originally posted by Dj Smitty20 I don't know where John McCain gets the nerve to say the US is "winning" in Iraq! Does anyone actually believe that horse shit? There has been no dramatic fall off in violence, as Krypton has pointed out. Sure, American casualties are down, but that can and likely will change once the militant cells have time to regroup after that glorious military operation called the "Surge". John McCain goes on about it like he actually had something to do with it and was some kind of "D-Day" to the war in Iraq. What utter NONSENSE! This violence is never going to end as long as the United States is there, plain and simple. Even after they leave, sectarian violence is highly probable. In the end, the Iraqi people are really NO BETTER OFF now than they were under Saddam Hussein and I will stand by that testament.

Yea the "spin" is incredible. There are still suicide bombings, car bombs, kidnappings, and roadside bombs every day, and they call this winning? I call it Republican lies. Iraq is worse off than it was under Saddam Hussein and that's a proven fact. How many people would choose tyranny with security, to false democracy without security? More than you'de expect...But it was never about democracy, or even WMDs. It's about Iraq's strategic place in the world, it's weakness militarily/economically, and the convenience of 911 to blame Iraq. Notice how the "war president" hasn't even captured Osama bin Laden as he said he would..."The United States will bring those responsible to justice for these cowardly acts"...Remember that? All lies...and one more thing...anyone who would carry out an ideologically-driven act knowing full well they are going to die doing it are hardly cowards.

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Originally posted by Krypton and one more thing...anyone who would carry out an ideologically-driven act knowing full well they are going to die doing it are hardly cowards.

go ahead buddy... show reverence and respect to them. How disillusioned have you become to prop up the people who believe they are doing the right thing by murdering civillians?

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Originally posted by The17sss go ahead buddy... show reverence and respect to them. How disillusioned have you become to prop up the people who believe they are doing the right thing by murdering civillians?

Show reverence and respect? Where the hell did you deduce that from my comments? It's an absolute statement. Anyone who is willing to sacrifice their lives for some ideology is obviously not a coward. Whether that ideology is considered evil or good. The way you just twisted my words really makes you the disillusioned one...

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In today's news...

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Bombs kill at least 35, Iraqis say By CHRISTOPHER TORCHIA, Associated Press Writer Mon Sep 15, 4:15 PM ET BAGHDAD - A suicide bomber blew herself up Monday among police officers who were celebrating the release of a comrade from U.S. custody, killing at least 22 people, Iraqi officials said. Separate bombings in Iraq killed 13 other people. The suicide attack happened in Diyala, a province northeast of Baghdad where Sunni insurgents have carried out persistent attacks despite security gains elsewhere in the country. The female bomber targeted the home of a police commissioner who had been detained by American troops for allegedly cooperating with the Mahdi Army, a Shiite militia. Maj. Gen. Abdul-Karim al-Rubaie, the military commander in Diyala, said most of the 22 fatalities were police and that 33 people were wounded in the evening attack in Balad Ruz, 45 miles northeast of Baghdad. Two police captains and three lieutenant colonels were among the dead, said a police officer who requested anonymity because he was not authorized to release the information.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080915/ap_on_re_mi_ea/iraq

So this is "winning"?

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Originally posted by Krypton Show reverence and respect? Where the hell did you deduce that from my comments? It's an absolute statement. Anyone who is willing to sacrifice their lives for some ideology is obviously not a coward. Whether that ideology is considered evil or good. The way you just twisted my words really makes you the disillusioned one...

my bad man i didn't mean to twist it up like that

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Originally posted by The17sss my bad man i didn't mean to twist it up like that

lol I don't mean to sound harsh..

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Last edited by Krypton on Sep-16-2008 at 04:15

Iraq...still a killing field. No occupation is ever going to end it...Once again, over 100 dead from violence. Don't let any of the corporate mouth pieces of the liars within our government fool you...

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Sunday 21 September: 22 dead Baghdad: 6 killed in separate attacks; 3 bodies. Ninewa Mosul: suicide truck bomber kills 2 policemen; gunmen kill 2 brothers walking in the street. Tameem Kirkuk: suicide car bomber kills 3 policemen at checkpoint. Diyala Jalawla: roadside bomb strikes minibus, kills 3. Salahuddin Tikrit: roadside bomb kills 1. Wassit Kut: 2 bodies found in river. Saturday 20 September: 16 dead Baghdad: 5 bodies. Ninewa Mosul: gunmen kill 4 in separate incidents. Tal Afar: suicide car bomber kills 2; 3 women's bodies found. Anbar Haditha: roadside bomb kills policeman. Wassit Kut: gunmen kill policeman. Friday 19 September: 14 dead Salahuddin Dawr: US air strike, followed by shooting, kills family of 8. Tuz Khurmato: gunmen kill woman. Ninewa Tal Afar: 2 bodies found. Diyala Balad Ruz: Katyusha rockets kill 1. Wassit Kut: 1 body found. Basra Basra: gunmen kill tribal leader. Thursday 18 September: 12 dead Baghdad: gunmen kill Ministry of the Interior official; 2 bodies. Ninewa Mosul: gunmen kill 5 in separate incidents; 3 bodies. Wassit Suwayra: roadside bomb kills 1. Wednesday 17 September: 33 dead Baghdad: 15 killed in bombings and shootings; 3 bodies found. Anbar Ramadi: Sahwa member killed by bomb under his car. Rutba: roadside bomb kills 2. Ninewa Mosul: gunmen kill deputy governor; civilian killed during clashes; roadside bomb kills 3; father is shot dead when gunmen attack his family. Tameem Rashad: gunmen open fire on minibus, kill 3. Chiman: woman's body is found. Shawan: 2 bodies found. Tuesday 16 September: 9 dead Baghdad: bomb kills 2, Taji; roadside bomb kills policeman, Shaab; 1 body found. Tameem Kirkuk: gunmen kill 1. Diyala Khaniqeen: roadside bomb kills 4 policemen. Monday 15 September: 43 dead Baghdad: car bombs kill 13, Karrada; car bomb kill Sahwa member, Adhamiya; journalist Kamal Aziz Khdayir killed by roadside bomb, Camp Sarah; 3 bodies found. Diyala Balad Ruz: suicide bomber kills 22 at family feast. Shohati: gunmen kill tribal chief in his car. Ninewa Mosul: Fine Arts student shot dead; 1 body found.

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Where do you find this information?

I spoke with a friend who's talked with BBC reporters on occasion who seems to think that everything outside the green zone is still kind of a no go zone. (not a great source but I do what I can)

I think the economist has come down on the "surge worked" side of the argument.

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Originally posted by atbell Where do you find this information? I spoke with a friend who's talked with BBC reporters on occasion who seems to think that everything outside the green zone is still kind of a no go zone. (not a great source but I do what I can) I think the economist has come down on the "surge worked" side of the argument.

www.iraqbodycount.org

They do a miticulous logging of all known or reported incidents in Iraq. Americans have been spoon-fed this "the surge worked" garbage and I'm just making it known, that the surge has not worked, not even in stopping violence. The occupation will fail, and will always fail.

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Originally posted by Krypton www.iraqbodycount.org They do a miticulous logging of all known or reported incidents in Iraq. Americans have been spoon-fed this "the surge worked" garbage and I'm just making it known, that the surge has not worked, not even in stopping violence. The occupation will fail, and will always fail.

Great graph on the front page.

Looks like the surge has only worked in reversing the damage from the attack on that mosque.

More than 100 violent deaths this week...

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Friday 26 September: 7 dead Anbar Falluja: gunmen kill policeman. Diyala Al-Atara: roadside bomb kills 3. Salahuddin Samarra: gunmen kill 3 security members. Thursday 25 September: 20 dead Baghdad: roadside bomb kills 2, Amil; roadside bomb kills policeman; civil servant dies in drive-by shooting,3 children killed by roadside bomb, Rashid; gay activist is shot dead in barber shop; 3 bodies found. Diyala Al-Kharab: roadside bomb kills 3. Ninewa Mosul: gunmen kill 1; 2 bodies found. Wassit Al-Dahouni: 1 body found. Babil Mussayab: gunmen kill Sahwa member at checkpoint; US forces kill man waiting for bus (mistakenly thinking he was planting bomb). Wednesday 24 September: 44 dead Baghdad: bomb under car kills driver, Shaab; US forces kill 3 members of family after coming under attack during search; 1 body found. Diyala Dulaimiyat: 35 policemen and Sahwa members ambushed by gunmen as they enter village. Abara: gunmen kill school guard. Uthmaniya: gunmen kill policeman. Al-Rasoul: gunmen kill policeman. Baquba: bomb kills woman. Tuesday 23 September: 11 dead Baghdad: roadside bomb kills 1, Karrada; US soldiers kill 2 elderly people after coming under attack, al-Madaen; 1 body found. Sulaimaniya Sulaimaniya: gunman kills detainee outside courthouse. Salahuddin Siniyah: US forces kill Sahwa leader during raid. Babil Iskandariya: roadside bomb kills driver. Ninewa Mosul: man killed by stray bullet; 2 bodies. Basra Basra: house of displaced family blown up, woman is killed. Monday 22 September: 38 dead Baghdad: car bomb kills 3, Karrada; mortar kills 1, Tobchi; 3 bodies. Ninewa Hamam al-Alil: bomb in the street kills 5 children; 2 bodies. Diyala: roadside bomb kills 2; around 20 bodies found in mass graves. Anbar Falluja: US soldiers kill policeman. Wassit Suwayra: body found in river. Sunday 21 September: 22 dead Baghdad: 6 killed in separate attacks; 3 bodies. Ninewa Mosul: suicide truck bomber kills 2 policemen; gunmen kill 2 brothers walking in the street. Tameem Kirkuk: suicide car bomber kills 3 policemen at checkpoint. Diyala Jalawla: roadside bomb strikes minibus, kills 3. Salahuddin Tikrit: roadside bomb kills 1. Wassit Kut: 2 bodies found in river. Saturday 20 September: 16 dead Baghdad: 5 bodies. Ninewa Mosul: gunmen kill 4 in separate incidents. Tal Afar: suicide car bomber kills 2; 3 women's bodies found. Anbar Haditha: roadside bomb kills policeman. Wassit Kut: gunmen kill policeman.

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SEPTEMBER TOTAL: 572 CIVILIANS KILLED, 31 CHILDREN AMONG THEM.
19 KILLED BY US FORCES.

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Friday 3 October: 7 dead Baghdad: US forces kill woman during raid, Rusafa; 1 body found. Ninewa Mosul: roadside bomb kills 2 policemen; 3 bodies found. Thursday 2 October: 31 dead Baghdad: suicide bombers kill 23 civilians outside mosques; 1 body found. Diyala Wajihiya: gunmen kill 6 family members (2 ch.) inside minibus. Babil Hilla: gunmen kill Interior Ministry employee. Wednesday 1 October: 7 dead Salahuddin Balad: car bomb kills 4. Missan Amara: 2 die in clashes. Sulaimaniya Halabja: 1 body found. Tuesday 30 September: 6 dead Baghdad: car bomb kills 4, Karrada; 2 bodies found. Monday 29 September: 13 dead Baghdad: 1 body found. Ninewa Mosul: gunmen kill 2 brothers; car bomb kills 2; gunmen kill coffee shop employee; 2 bodies found. Diyala Al-Rasoul: gunmen kill 2 sons of tribal leader. Khan Bani Saad: gunmen kill 2 members of displaced family. Babil Iskandariya: roadside bomb kills 1. Sunday 28 September: 42 dead Baghdad: 34 killed in bomb attacks; 2 bodies found. Ninewa Mosul: 2 killed by gunmen; tribal leader killed by bomb under his car. Diyala Khan Bani Saad: 3 killed by gunmen. Saturday 27 September: 7 dead Baghdad: 1 body found. Diyala Jalawla: 2 killed during clashes. Khalis: gunmen kill policeman. Ninewa Mosul: roadside bomb kills 1; gunmen kill table tennis coach. Babil Mussayab: man is killed in drive-by shooting.

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