Except one thing, all of these qualities you mention that make one a market leader, do not apply to windows. They do not apply to McAffee antivirus. They do not apply to McDonalds, they do not apply to eMachine or Dell PCS....those 5 things alone represent the worst of quality in their fields. They are also the most popular and most used.

Windows, windows is a no fucking brainer. When windows Vista was release the piece of shit couldn't open a .jpg file without crashing, even moreso, bill gates himself has implied that vista is the worse thing his company has ever made. And when you look at what is in store with Windows 7, well, enough said. You know how they will sell windows 7? Marketing. That's not even mentioning that windowsland is a minefield of malware. [lol firefox keeps trying to change the word malware to "malarkey"]

McAfee anti virus..are you fucking serious? Norton for many years was held as number one, it was always, from day one, a piece of crap. How do you think malware spreads? How do you think Gator and Bonzai Buddy became so popular? Marketing

McDonalds? McDonalds food is horrible, you might as well put cardboard between two pieces of stale bread. And the funny part is everyone i know who eats fast food in general doesn't like it. So who knows [we know, really..marketing] why people like it, but it certainly isn't because its quality.

Lets not even start with eMachines, a very infamous computer company that struck it WAY big in the late 90's early 00's, and their computers were notorious for things like bad fans and power supplies, not to mention the loads of bloatware they came packaged with. Dell is pretty much the same shit, just a different company. Get a dell pc today running vista and you will be lucky if you can even watch youtube on it without it slowing down. Dell is probably the most used company when it comes to PCs...why? Marketing.

AOL, i'm sure everyone here remembers the horrors of AOL, not only in the software, but how they treat customers. Or what about comcast?? Comcast is the [iirc] only cable company in most of ameirca. It is absolutely number one. Comcast's customer support rates lower than the IRS! Internal Revenue Service. The most hated branch of government known to man. How does comcast get to where its at? Marketing [and some illegal actions, but lets not get into that]

Most of the number one products when it comes to software are shit. But are still number one. I can only name a few instances where a company truly is number one at what it is. But most of the time a company wins people's money through marketing. American cars are shit, American cars are still sold. Though Japanese cars are starting to be number one [w00t, Go Nissan!] But how long do you expect that to last?

I'm mean come on, people don't spend 20 years in constant study in marketing for no reason. People know marketing sells your product, not quality. Sure there are some cases where a product is one because its good [alot of German companies, esp in fields of electrical engineering] but moooost of the time its number one, its popular and used most of all...because that company did good with their marketing.

Look at nearly all food related products, its almost always marketing, most foods these days are horrible, they contain chemicals i wouldn't touch with a 5 mile pole. What about cigarettes? They are known to kill people, but people still buy them. Why? A combination of people not giving a shit [windows] and marketing. There is no such thing as a "quality cigarette"

To summarize, I agree quality can make a company number one, but quality is not how the majority of the world runs. Most people know and don't care,or they don't know because of clever marketing.

You do know marketing itself IS a science?

___________________
i'm the alchemist without the cyst without a doubt out of the mist
dig out the grout expose the pest to take it out without the rest

they will attest my patients restorations from the best

i'm from the west i'm not an acmeist only the alchemist

quote:

Originally posted by cronodevir Can you name an instance where market share directly correlates with quality?

MP3 players -> Ipod series. win.
Good usability, sturdy build, easy-to-understand software, it's been an intriguing gadget right from the start.

Oh and please stop. And I guess you are some sort of programmer/nerd. It wouldn't surprise me if you are the way you present yourself in this argument.

I've seen so many people I work with trying badly to win an argument this way, they all end up getting fired by me & partner for being incompetent hahaha.
Programmer: "But it works doesn't it."
Me: "But the end-user which you're creating it for does not understand how it works."
Programmer: "But it works."
Me: "That's not the point..."
Programmer: "But it works."
Me: "No"
Programmer: "But it works."
Me: "Change it."
Programmer: "But it works."
Me: "Bye"

Sadly that sums up almost this entire discussion. Programmers syndrom.

___________________

Storyteller Website | Storyteller @ Facebook | Storyteller @ Beatport | Storyteller @ Soundcloud | Stephen J. Kroos - Europa (Storyteller Remix)
Anthony Mea - Get It On (Storyteller Remix)

quote:

If less is more think about how much more more would be. -Frasier

Last edited by Storyteller on Apr-15-2009 at 08:07

quote:

Originally posted by cronodevir That is why you have this filthy virus infected scummy shit world known as windows where malware is prevalent and 90% of the user base computers are email spamming zombies.

Bro, Windows doesn't have a lot of viruses because it is not secure... It has a lot of viruses because most viruses are written for Windows. You should know this man. Firefox has more potential security holes than IE, it's just that no one exploits them. Most viruses are written by pathetic losers who think they are on some kind of moral crusade against the MS monopoly. Such users have no reason to attack OSX/Linux because hardly anyone uses them and they have no beef with the respective companies.

Windows is an excellent product.

Most of the problems that occurred when Vista was released were from shit third party developers not getting their act together and ensuring compatibility.

quote:

Originally posted by echosystm Bro, Windows doesn't have a lot of viruses because it is not secure... It has a lot of viruses because most viruses are written for Windows. You should know this man. Firefox has more potential security holes than IE, it's just that no one exploits them. Most viruses are written by pathetic losers who think they are on some kind of moral crusade against the MS monopoly. Such users have no reason to attack OSX/Linux because hardly anyone uses them and they have no beef with the respective companies. Windows is an excellent product. Most of the problems that occurred when Vista was released were from shit third party developers not getting their act together and ensuring compatibility.

Someone who is able to code a sophisticated virus or piece of malware, I think, is more than just a "pathetic loser" They attack windows because its easy to attack, and because most people who use it, are known among everyone, to not know shit about computers. Windows is "that OS normal unknowing people use" And so are easy targets. Even people who DO know alot about PCs get infected at some point.

___________________
i'm the alchemist without the cyst without a doubt out of the mist
dig out the grout expose the pest to take it out without the rest

they will attest my patients restorations from the best

i'm from the west i'm not an acmeist only the alchemist

quote:

Originally posted by cronodevir Someone who is able to code a sophisticated virus or piece of malware, I think, is more than just a "pathetic loser" They attack windows because its easy to attack, and because most people who use it, are known among everyone, to not know shit about computers. Windows is "that OS normal unknowing people use" And so are easy targets. Even people who DO know alot about PCs get infected at some point.

A person spending time developping a project that has no self benefit? I would say that is pretty close to a "pathetic loser" . Of course i would of just said loser as it already implies the pathetic part.

quote:

Originally posted by cronodevir Except one thing, all of these qualities you mention that make one a market leader, do not apply to windows. They do not apply to McAffee antivirus. They do not apply to McDonalds, they do not apply to eMachine or Dell PCS....those 5 things alone represent the worst of quality in their fields. They are also the most popular and most used. Windows, windows is a no fucking brainer. When windows Vista was release the piece of shit couldn't open a .jpg file without crashing, even moreso, bill gates himself has implied that vista is the worse thing his company has ever made. And when you look at what is in store with Windows 7, well, enough said. You know how they will sell windows 7? Marketing. That's not even mentioning that windowsland is a minefield of malware. [lol firefox keeps trying to change the word malware to "malarkey"] McAfee anti virus..are you fucking serious? Norton for many years was held as number one, it was always, from day one, a piece of crap. How do you think malware spreads? How do you think Gator and Bonzai Buddy became so popular? Marketing McDonalds? McDonalds food is horrible, you might as well put cardboard between two pieces of stale bread. And the funny part is everyone i know who eats fast food in general doesn't like it. So who knows [we know, really..marketing] why people like it, but it certainly isn't because its quality. Lets not even start with eMachines, a very infamous computer company that struck it WAY big in the late 90's early 00's, and their computers were notorious for things like bad fans and power supplies, not to mention the loads of bloatware they came packaged with. Dell is pretty much the same shit, just a different company. Get a dell pc today running vista and you will be lucky if you can even watch youtube on it without it slowing down. Dell is probably the most used company when it comes to PCs...why? Marketing. AOL, i'm sure everyone here remembers the horrors of AOL, not only in the software, but how they treat customers. Or what about comcast?? Comcast is the [iirc] only cable company in most of ameirca. It is absolutely number one. Comcast's customer support rates lower than the IRS! Internal Revenue Service. The most hated branch of government known to man. How does comcast get to where its at? Marketing [and some illegal actions, but lets not get into that] Most of the number one products when it comes to software are shit. But are still number one. I can only name a few instances where a company truly is number one at what it is. But most of the time a company wins people's money through marketing. American cars are shit, American cars are still sold. Though Japanese cars are starting to be number one [w00t, Go Nissan!] But how long do you expect that to last? I'm mean come on, people don't spend 20 years in constant study in marketing for no reason. People know marketing sells your product, not quality. Sure there are some cases where a product is one because its good [alot of German companies, esp in fields of electrical engineering] but moooost of the time its number one, its popular and used most of all...because that company did good with their marketing. Look at nearly all food related products, its almost always marketing, most foods these days are horrible, they contain chemicals i wouldn't touch with a 5 mile pole. What about cigarettes? They are known to kill people, but people still buy them. Why? A combination of people not giving a shit [windows] and marketing. There is no such thing as a "quality cigarette" To summarize, I agree quality can make a company number one, but quality is not how the majority of the world runs. Most people know and don't care,or they don't know because of clever marketing. You do know marketing itself IS a science?

What are you talking about? You have the strangest view on things in this world. I think you need to get out more.

I can name a thousand brands that have their business model setup on providing dirt cheap products that are also low quality - the consumer market isn't a single tier market where only cheap items sell. I used to manage a marketing company so I know this shit from a professional standpoint. marketing can only get you so far before consumers realise it's not a great product, and again in this day, that happens faster than ever. That's EXACTLY what happened with vista so you're completely misguided to use it as an example of how marketing can sell a sub standard product, becuase it didn;t work, which Mr Gates also admitted to.

Windows, without doubt, is probably one of the best software products ever released, all thing considered. Can you name another item so versatile for so many uses that costs a couple of hundered dollars? It's not all a big conspiracy that it did/does so well......

Having said that about vista - Echosystem is exactly right. The OS itself was decent - it had it's faults but so does every OS when it comes out, including your beloved linux which is always in development. Third parties were incredibly slow to react to the changes meaning there were many compatibility issues and of course, MS got the blame.

Storyteller makes an excellent point which I;ve been trying to get at about DAW OS in general: Just because something works techncially doesn;t make it good by a long way - it has to be easy/intuitive/logical for the end user as that is a huge portion of what makes a product good, as products are inherently made for the end user, not the designer......and that is exactly why apple has been so successful in recent years. Their (mr. Jobs) ability to visualise end user software/interfaces is acknowledged to be the key to their success over any other factors.

We can all sit here and name companies that have bad tracks records and throw money at it to try to change opinion but that's small drop in the ocean compared to companies that produce good quality products that cost good money. The japanese cars are destroying the US car industry becuase they make better products and the US car industry has admitted again and again. Oh, and if you haven't noticed, people aren't buying american cars.

as for viruses, the vast majority are programmed by pathetic losers, most of whom are in russia or asia (apart from a very few gifted american 12 year olds) who can't afford or get macs wher they live so they spend all their time (in their bedrooms) trying to figure out "hilarious" ways to make computers crash. PC's are cheap and everywhere and nearly all of them have windows on them so it's a no brainer as to why all virus' are on PCs.

Anyone that spends 20 years in constant study for marketing, has a problem and will probably never make it in marketing. I know, I studied marketing before spending several years working in a large business communications agency.......you're talking to a poacher, not a gamekeeper.

But what the fuck does this have to do with music production?

None, so please lets just forget about this nonsense.

quote:

Originally posted by RichieV quote: Originally posted by cronodevir Someone who is able to code a sophisticated virus or piece of malware, I think, is more than just a "pathetic loser" They attack windows because its easy to attack, and because most people who use it, are known among everyone, to not know shit about computers. Windows is "that OS normal unknowing people use" And so are easy targets. Even people who DO know alot about PCs get infected at some point. A person spending time developping a project that has no self benefit? I would say that is pretty close to a "pathetic loser" . Of course i would of just said loser as it already implies the pathetic part.

At this point, RichieV, I have to wholeheartedly agree with you. When someone is writing and/or executing malicious code in order to interfere with the operation of someone else's computer, they are doing so because they are motivated to do so.

One has to ask, 'what could motivate such a person to do so?'

The answer to that question has to do with anger, sadism (an expression of anger), powerlessness, or (compensatory) narcissism (a reinforcement of a false ego which essentially masks the powerless 'real' one). A subset of hackers may be using it to further criminal enterprise, but such action belies more anti-social tendencies. Contempt for PC users because of their naivety merely indicates the realization of an opportunity coupled with hostility. The underlying motivations for such behavior aren't explained with cronodevir's proposed rationale. The rationale is more appropriate to victimology (how or why the victim, in this instance, became a victim.)

Essentially speaking, that which is being attacked is an extension of self. Consider everything people use computers for. I have mountains of data in the form of writing and .wav files. While I have backed up most everything, I have suffered from catastrophic encounters with malware that wiped out my hard-drive.



The above is a rendering of a file I made in Blender (a free-ware 3D program) that, upon the last time my computer was hit with a virus, was completely eliminated. I'm using myself as an example of anyone, however. People use computers to store journals, writing, poetry, music, et al.

The release of such viruses into the wild, in such a manner as to be indiscriminate, belies a motivation to be destructive. The person who devises such a mechanism isn't doing it because PC users are stupid. They're doing it because they derive satisfaction out of attacking another person, psychologically.

They have created something which is essentially programmed to render a machine which stores people's intellectual creations, useless. It may be most likened, so far as psychological profiling, to an act of arson.

While arson may be committed for a variety of reasons, when it is recreational, there is sometimes a sexual component. Invariably, in such a case, once a fire has been lit, the arsonist opens his fly and begins masturbating. The typical serial arsonist is someone who is young, has been abused, and lights fires because of their self-perceived (imagined or real) inadequacies. In short, very pathetic.

With so many things that a computer may be used for, the fact that anyone sets aside time to write malicious code, opposed to creating something which might benefit that and other individual(s) is an indication that they are, like the serial arsonist, pathetic. They might be smart, bordering on or even surpassing the genius mark, but they are, in the end, reconciled to doing something which is destructive opposed to creative.

conslusion is imo, just keep it at 44,1kHz 16bit

quote:

Originally posted by RichieV A person spending time developping a project that has no self benefit? I would say that is pretty close to a "pathetic loser" . Of course i would of just said loser as it already implies the pathetic part.

Lol, Your talking to a guy who thinks it should be illegal to make money off software in the first place. You develop a project because you want to see good in it. The same way you write music because you want to hear good things.

Everyone, Attention, RichieV thinks only a pathetic looser would make music without getting any self benefit. That is his stance. His position. His belief system. Because software development is no less an art form for so many people, than making music is. Its nice to finally see your fucked up attitude towards artists who don't do it for the money.

DJ RANN

I have the correct view on the world. You know I'm tired of trying to beat around the bush, how can you be this fucking naive? Linxu does everything windows does, and its free. "Third parties were incredibly slow to react to the changes meaning there were many compatibility issues and of course, MS got the blame." You just said it. You pointed out a core flaw with that model. So about things being "easy/intuitive/logical" By your definition, you HAVE to agree FLStudio is a better program than Cubase. Because its easier to use, its intuitive, and its logical. This is your own definition now. Apple is less than 2% of the computing world aswell. A million people may have iPods, but 10 times as many people have generic mp3 players. Everyone I know has an mp3 player, in the collage I have been to i didn't seen a single iPod, but I did see hundreds of different types of generic mp3 players. I didn't see an iPhones either. More people run a linux based system than Mac OS, simply because of Linux great server capabilities.

Lol, you want to reduce some of the most elegant coding [viruses] to simple "skriptkiddie" pandering? Really you jest. Windows is a playground for those coders who wish to show that coding is an artform. I don't know any branch of software development that shows such creativity. Much like a virus in the real world. It sounds to me like you have, too many times, been the victim of malware, all I can say is stop using windows and most of it just goes away. People don't write viruses for linux because they known they don't as the freedom that they have on windows. If a virus were to turn up on linux it wouldn't last long because most linux users know about this shit.

What does this have to do with music production? Coding software is an art for nearly every coder ive met. And that is alot. Its something they do because its fun. And when you have comments like RichieV basically saying there is no merit in coding without a self benefit. It makes me wonder why they are making music. And do they see music as just an avenue for revenue?

___________________
i'm the alchemist without the cyst without a doubt out of the mist
dig out the grout expose the pest to take it out without the rest

they will attest my patients restorations from the best

i'm from the west i'm not an acmeist only the alchemist

quote:

Originally posted by EddieZilker

Don't start with this Sigmund Freud crap. Because he and you is full of shit.

Windows users are often the target because intelligent people wish that people who use computers are intelligent themselves. They don't want to make it easy, and I don't blame them. Because when you pander to the masses, all you get is over simplistic menial software. The quality as a whole goes down in order to pander to the moronic of us who wish to use a computer.

Isn't this what we are talking about in the 1999 vs 2009 thread? How trance became easy to listen to and understandable to the masses of soccer moms? Isn't this the very thing alot of you complain about in modern trance? Its the same situation in software. People don't want the quality of software overall to go down because people feel they need to make things easy for the masses.

Why in music or software, would you want the total quality equal to the lowest common denominator among us? By you reasoning, Could I make a synth that has 3 buttons "House sound" "Trance Sound" "Psy Sound" and it magically produces your leads for you? It would be easy, intuitive and logical. You click a button and you have 'that' sound. And futher more, I would go and tell people using a Virus "with all those fnagled knobs and sliders" that the virus is too complicated for the average user and is thus bad hardware.

And following this path could someone later say that "3 buttons is too complicated"..and make a synth with one button?

They way I see it, you force people to elarn complicated things and eventually software gets more complicated and the over quality from that gets higher...or you make things simple and restricted, and eventually you have software with one button that does one thing. Where else can it go?

___________________
i'm the alchemist without the cyst without a doubt out of the mist
dig out the grout expose the pest to take it out without the rest

they will attest my patients restorations from the best

i'm from the west i'm not an acmeist only the alchemist

Last edited by cronodevir on Apr-15-2009 at 20:45

despite his strange theories , i'm sure he would at least be able to figure out the quote function on a message board.

Have you taken your medication today?