Originally posted by SYSTEM-J
No. You said "Too many things have to go right..." You don't know that. What we know doesn't tell us that. You can't work out any kind of probability from what we know, because we know only about life on one planet.
Judging by everything we know about life thus far, certain things HAVE TO go right. Stars have to be suitable, a planet has to be in a prime distance from the star to create conditions for life; then the building blocks for life have to actually develop. Then it has to survive long enough to develop into something more than a micro organism. There's too many variables that impact the whole developmental process of life as we know it to just throw out statements like "oh ya there's totally more intelligent life out there."
You can theorize about life developing in completely different conditions but thus far we haven't any proof that life develops without those building blocks.
quote:
We haven't even defined what constitutes "intelligent life". If you're talking about aliens that build cities and have wars then you're probably right, but the odds are that any life we might encounter will probably be radically different to life on Earth in the first place.
I think I originally said that there's a very very small chance that at this point in time, there is life out there that is as intelligent as us. They might've existed a long time ago and died off, or they're lagging behind us. But chances that they're existing at the same time as us and are as advanced as us is small.
Now, defining what constitutes "intelligent life" is a completely different discussion and its something that won't be defined for a long long time (well beyond our lives) but what I was referring to was beings that share similar observational and intuitive skills, self-awareness and similar mental capacities. Sure there's also the possibility that there's beings out there that could be completely beyond our wildest imaginations but thats not even close to what I'm talking about.
Sep-04-2009 20:27
SYSTEM-J
IDKFA.
Registered: Sep 2003
Location: Manchester
quote:
Originally posted by infinity HiGH
Judging by everything we know about life thus far, certain things HAVE TO go right.
How do we know they have to go right? It hasn't been proven there is no life on the other planets in this solar system yet. Many scientists think life could exist on Europa, one of Jupiter's moons. Even if there isn't, there's no proof that life merely hasn't begun there yet. We're not even certain how life started.
We know that conditions on Earth are conducive to life, because there is life here. Everything else in your argument is an unproven assumption. For what it's worth, I'm not throwing out statements of probability. I'm as agnostic about life elsewhere in the universe as I am about a creator. Not enough is known to say it's likely or unlikely. That's my point.
Also, my big figures about stars and galaxies had nothing to do with intelligent life elsewhere. The point was to dispel the notion that life here is so incredibly improbable that it had to have come from a creator, which wasn't a point you were making. I was just tackling another misconception about probability of life while the subject was there.
quote:
Sure there's also the possibility that there's beings out there that could be completely beyond our wildest imaginations but thats not even close to what I'm talking about.
Not what you're talking about, but perhaps what Stren was talking about. Certainly what I'm talking about. If your definition of intelligent life is "intelligent like us" then I'd agree 100%. I don't think there's any such life in the universe. But my definition of intelligent life is quite different.
Originally posted by infinity HiGH
What the fuck are you talking about? Once you have bacteria you're set for what? As far as we know to reach intelligent life it takes a freaking long time. Bacteria doesn't set or guarantee anything, except that there's microscopic life, which I don't doubt exists somewhere out there.
I laid out for you the time lines for evolution on earth. It seems through radiometric dating the hardest evolutionary step was from single cell bacteria to multicellular bacteria. which probably took a good 2 or so billion years.
around 1 billion years later you get complex mutlicellular organisms and very soon after you have .5 billion years you have arthropod like creatures and life evolves exponentially at that point with diversity.
So essentially if there is evidence of eukaryotic life out there (multicellular bacteria) it shouldnt be so far of a stretch to find complex organisms.
Now as intelligent as humans? it may be difficult that this could occur but its definatley probable. They theorized that the troodon dinausaur was a possible candidate for intelligence on our scale and may have evolved as we did from apes. During the cretacious period, it was the most intelligent dinosaur (cranial capacity wise). This is very presumptious though and since the dinosaurs were extinct by a large asteroid we would never know. We still have about 5 billion years left before our sun goes into red giant mode where the earth may be engulfed. So Complex organisms have been around for only 500 million years or so. Fairly intelligent life for about 70 million. Its very possible that even after our extinction other animals may take on the role of most intelligent on our planet. There would be at least 4 billion years to do this (presuming we could last another 1 billion years but i doubt it. )
So anyways my point is that its not so far fetched to get intelligent life on a planet if you have the basic building blocks for them. Complexity is not an issue with evolution. once you have the foundation, evolution occurs on an exponential level according to the Earth model. (the only model we have).
quote:
lol how the fuck is any of this relevant? What I'm saying has absolutely nothing to do with that.
absolutely it does. Will us polluting the planet kill all life as we know it?
We could burn down all the trees hunt all the animals we could find and life would still persist and evolve. We are just a blip on the biological time scale. It would all be resolved with due time. (several million years none the less though)
divide 500 by .2 thats how long our species have been living for relative to complex life. Our presence is insignificant. So my point is that life is not isolated to certain circumstances. The playing field does not need to be JUST RIGHT for things to occur. The whole thesis of natural selection is that life adapts to the environment, and the environment doesn't adapt for life.
Do you know that there is life in volcanoes?
In extreme salinity ?
extreme pH ?
It seems to me circumstances do not need to be just right. but instead If chemical evolution can occur as well as simple prokaryotic life. A huge hurtle has been jumped to set the stage for complex life.
Very probable after that point.
Sep-04-2009 21:11
adi_hanson
feels a newbie.
Registered: Dec 2007
Location: Blackburn
I dont think evolution takes as long as you think , Just look at boobs , no seriously , look back in time about 50 years or so , and acompanied by facts , which i cant be bothered to find , show that womens fun bags are increasing by 1 cup size per generation.
Originally posted by adi_hanson
I dont think evolution takes as long as you think , Just look at boobs , no seriously , look back in time about 50 years or so , and acompanied by facts , which i cant be bothered to find , show that womens fun bags are increasing by 1 cup size per generation.
proof is in the boobs.
what about african boobs from native tribes
Sep-04-2009 21:34
adi_hanson
feels a newbie.
Registered: Dec 2007
Location: Blackburn
quote:
Originally posted by Nrg2Nfinit
what about african boobs from native tribes
They always have been saggy , and always been in africa.
White people im , or what the article i read , was refering to.
But you see african tribes walking over rocks and whatever else , and i prance like an idiot if i have to walk to the car barefooted because i left something in it.
i think local enviroments can cause very quick changes in any animal form.
