quote:

Originally posted by jennypie I'm not even arguing that point. I'm saying that there are many factors that contribute to a person's well-being. And for those who have been dealt a shit hand, it's not as easy as "GET IT TOGETHER AND CHANGE YOUR ATTITUDE". It's not about playing the victim or looking to shunt responsibility. What you fail to understand is that the very notion of responsibility and free will is different for everyone - which is especially obvious in populations of low socio-economic status, the homeless, etc. I don't even know why I'm talking to you. It doesn't seem like you really want to understand the issues here.

I am not saying it is a matter of "get it together" blah blah blah, either. You're making an assumption about my position that is wrong.

Mackler says "Laying blame at the feet of perpetrators is a huge step in breaking the intergenerational cycle of trauma—and sets the stage for healing."

I disagree. I think that this make a person feel out of control of their own lives and thus will accept their fate. Very defeatist attitude like, someone else dictates what will happen to me, so why should I care/bother etc.

quote:

Originally posted by PivotTechno How did blaming the individual(s) who abused a person suddenly balloon to "blaming everyone"?

Earlier, I acknowledged the situation of abuse and agreed that the individual should know that they are the victim and not the perpetrator, aka they didn't deserve to be treated that way. With that being said, I don't think it is healthy to go through life thinking that "I am screwed up because so and so did this to me".

Welp, I was never talking about Mackler in this thread. I was just sharing insights based on what I've learned the past 3 years and through researching and working with those populations.

quote:

Originally posted by jennypie Welp, I was never talking about Mackler in this thread. I was just sharing insights based on what I've learned the past 3 years and through researching and working with those populations.

Is this your veiled way of showing that you realize we aren't even talking about the same thing?



To clarify, I know that people who are mentally ill/addicted are in no mental capacity to sit themselves down and be like "ok, let's get our shit together". I am by no means trying to make a statement to suggest otherwise.

But we are essentially talking about the same thing. It all goes back to the same point regardless of how you want to paint it and to what degree.

But w/e, it's not worth arguing...at the end of the day I think that you and I agree for the most part, just there are gaps that I can see in your thinking. I'm not kidding, T, pick up 'In the Realm of Hungry Ghosts' by Gabor Mate.

quote:

Originally posted by Theresa I am saying that sitting there and allowing yourself to say "if my parents hadn't done this or that, I wouldn't be like this" or "the actions of others made me do this" etc. etc.

So for an adult who recognises even a relatively moderate amount of childhood abuse (i.e.- parents screamed at them regularly to vent their own life's frustration and not out of any wrongdoing of the child) within themselves, what would you recommend they do with all of the ill will that rises up within them when they think back to those times? Your patient gets agitated to the point of visible anger when they think of the crap that they had to put up with when they had little or no means to defend themselves and no one to talk with about how all of this felt for them - where is that anger supposed to go, exactly?

If they bottle it up/swallow it, it will make them physically/mentally ill to the point where:

- they're living in constant pain, headaches, muscular tension, etc.
- it eventually comes boiling to the surface and they unconsciously unleash it on others
- it transmutes into other neuroses, compulsions, addictions, etc.

So since bottling it up doesn't work, and you don't think it's a positive measure for them to blame those who inflicted the abuse, what's your wise suggestion?

Do tell...

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quote:

Originally posted by jennypie But w/e, it's not worth arguing...at the end of the day I think that you and I agree for the most part

Aww - now you two hug

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Ok, but don't look.

Well what's the point then?

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To piss you off, duh.

quote:

Originally posted by PivotTechno If they bottle it up/swallow it, it will make them physically/mentally ill to the point where: - they're living in constant pain, headaches, muscular tension, etc. - it eventually comes boiling to the surface and they unconsciously unleash it on others - it transmutes into other neuroses, compulsions, addictions, etc.

Hah, just realised I'm covering about 99% of Western society here.

Time to change the current definition of "mental illness".

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I guess what I took issue with was this example that Mackler used:

My observation is that all parents, even the worst parents, “did the best they could.” Yet this doesn’t let any parent off the hook. A child has the right to blame his parents for their inadequacies—because their inadequacies damaged him.

So in essence, he is saying that people can go through their lives and say "I fuck up because my parents gave me a shitty life". This is bullshit IMO. It's removing personal responsibility for your own actions/behaviours.

In terms of addiction, this attitude gives the addicted the right to say "I am a drug addict because my dad beat me" or whatever. Perhaps that is what initiated the behaviour, and acknowledging that may be a good thing (I think resolving past issues can absolutely be positive).

However, with this being said, I do not think it is a healthy behaviour to believe that others dictate your life. To say "I am a drug addict because my dad beat me" and then accept that it cannot be changed, that you have no control over it, thus giving you the excuse to continue on or to remove any personal responsibility, is not a positive thing. Like I said 230948204385 times, I think it fosters the idea that there is no point in doing anything for yourself because someone else controls what happens to you anyway.

EDIT:

quote:

Originally posted by PivotTechno So for an adult who recognises even a relatively moderate amount of childhood abuse (i.e.- parents screamed at them regularly to vent their own life's frustration and not out of any wrongdoing of the child) within themselves, what would you recommend they do with all of the ill will that rises up within them when they think back to those times? Your patient gets agitated to the point of visible anger when they think of the crap that they had to put up with when they had little or no means to defend themselves and no one to talk with about how all of this felt for them - where is that anger supposed to go, exactly? If they bottle it up/swallow it, it will make them physically/mentally ill to the point where: - they're living in constant pain, headaches, muscular tension, etc. - it eventually comes boiling to the surface and they unconsciously unleash it on others - it transmutes into other neuroses, compulsions, addictions, etc. So since bottling it up doesn't work, and you don't think it's a positive measure for them to blame those who inflicted the abuse, what's your wise suggestion? Do tell...

Selecting one piece of text that I wrote, and removing it from its context AND ignoring everything else I have said, is going to get you to this assumption.

Please re-read what I have written and maybe you will understand.