Thanks Normie & Cryo for your answers and please, don't take any slight at my frustration. It's not that I don't get it. It's just that I'm frustrated enough with the topic to abandon it for, at least, tonight if not perpetuity.

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Now with extra singles!
my old stuff, not quite up to snuff - but I still dig it - UPDATED 9/23/2012

you write well.

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"This is why Superman works alone." GC
old stuff from days gone by (2001-2004)
Mad For Brad's gay little contest

quote:

Originally posted by Looney4Clooney it really isn't that mysterious. Get a recording, do a spectral analysis, There is your groove. That information can be applied to your track without ever pressing a note on a keyboard or playing anything the live. the point really was to explain what it is and what it isn't. Not to give examples and it took about 3 iterations to explain that groove is not swing, it isn't something you only find in funky music. It is actually quite tangible.

I kinda get what your saying here, and it makes sense to me in some situations. Here's where I see a problem: What if you take a track like "Groove is in the Heart" by Dee Lite and 'groove map' the groove from Pantera's Walk over it. Absurd yes, but my point is that unless you have a song very much like Walk to begin with, it's not gonna work well. So it still comes back to the feel/interplay thing on a per song basis. IE how the notes play off each other/work at odds with each other/together. When you are saying take/apply the information of the groove of one track, we are effectively back to the original question. What is groove in hard terms...what is that information 'exactly' which we would apply between the songs? Or did I completely miss the point?

And I agree with you totally that it doesn't 'have' to be physically played. Nor is it swing. But having knowledge of the dynamics of actual performance when you program a song is going to help you program something a hell of a lot closer to 'groove', funky or otherwise, than not, even if you are effectively playing with yourself.

Normie (Who waits knowingly for the correction in the error of my ways)

Just to clear the decks here a little and in the spirit of robust discourse as opposed to online combat:


I enyoy Hawkwind, Sade, Portishead, Softcell, Bolero, REM, Howling Wolf, Iaso Tomita, Robert Palmer and countless others.

But to dance to, right from my earliest memories, only electronica made me move, whether it was Donna Summers I feel love or Farley Jackmaster Funk. I c ant help this, any more than I can help that I love hot spicey food.

I am not a bad pianist, not great, just ok. Many nights I will just play prior to producing. Usually old classics.

My partner in crime is an excellent bassist and spent years in bands. I mention this as L4C often makes this assumption people here are dumb bedroom hacks that have only ever fiddled with a mouse.

I fell in love with sound and African tribal rythmns at the age of 6, and I've devoured all types of music ever since. I got my first keyboard at 12 - an old Bontempi organ from a junk shop.
This impression were all lame mouse movers is misplaced I think.


I think people just have differnt ways of responding to a 'groovey' piece of playing.

Stevie Wonders 'I Wish' grooves like heck and it's great TO LISTEN TO, but not to dance to (for me and guys I grew up with).

L4C's drummer - of course I realise he's incredibly talented and plays a mean and groovey beat, but in terms of DANCE MUSIC he brings nothing to the party FOR ME.

L4C dimissed The Amen Break as 3/10 and nothing of note, but that one break spawned 20 years of house and D&B and Jungle and on into big beat and rave, both white and black. Everyone from Tyree Cooper to General Levy recognised something in that beat.

For me The Amen Break then encapsulates DANCE groove. It comes down to more than just a clever piece of playing by a respected drummer.

Of course I get than even some classical music has a note worthy groove, and I would never argue otherwise.

All I'm saying is groove in MY TERMS, is about getting people to dance. Groove has a broader sense which I think some of you guys are elluding to, and I wouldn't argue against it for a moment.

L4C - this thing about only experienced musicians really understanding groove, is I think a clumsy point. Very influencial greats of DANCE that could'nt play a note, produced tracks that a great many people would slot into the groovey pigeon whole. Goldie would be an example.


You repeately say that EDM people only listen to EDM, what evidence to you base this assertion upon?
Most EDM people, myself included do not listen to much edm for example in thier cars, as they welcome the refreshing not so intense pounding sounds of other styles from rock to classical.

Your'e an intelligent guy with incredible musical know how, but I don't think this entitles you to be king of every thought. The mere fact you've decided all edm people only listen to edm, indicates you are quick to take mental shortcuts and make assumptions that do not bare scrutiny.

I would loose hands down to you if we were discussing compostional matters, but I'm not going to tip toe around and suck cock at your every utterance.

There are guys on this forum who cant play a note but that make excellent edm. As such thier contribution is valid and worthwhile.

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Last edited by Richard Butler on Feb-09-2012 at 11:45

quote:

Originally posted by EddieZilker The fact of the matter is that I cannot see nor hear how anyone is relating it to EDM in concrete terms with bona fide evidence to bolster their arguments.

You've minded me of philisophical discourse where the protagonists cannot even agree on seemingly common sense definitions such as what it means to be conscious - afterall if you take away a persons memories (as with alzheimers) they cease to conscious, so is being conscious just down to a memory collection?.

What is a memory - there is no one definition, and so it's also bound to be the case that folk cannot agree what groove is.


Groove is never going to be pinned down and exihibited or distilled, but it doesn't anger me we each have a differing take on the matter.

It's great and worthwhile to hear others opinions, and although we'll never resolve it neatly, it's still a value added endeavour for me.

___________________
https://soundcloud.com/butlerrichard

Alzheimers is a bit more complicated than memory loss. Many people have lost their memories (amnesia etc] and still are very much aware of their own existence, sensations, thoughts, surroundings, etc

If you dont have the feel for it it becomes a little difficult.. how can you hear if something sounds well if you don't really hear it? It becomes a paradox...

Rythm is more something you "feel" than "hear".. So to put it bluntly its difficult to feel something if you don't feel it, and certain persons dont have rythm in their bodies innately.. But i think it can be learnt by practise like everything else, but to what degree I dont know.. Personally I've been dancing all my life in different arts like breakdance and popping, and I feel it very strongly if something crashes for me rythmically, it can be the most minute detail in terms of position of an element in time.. It's perfectionism and it occasionally can drive me crazy..

I have my own view and philosophies upon rythm and why generic rythms - which one would think was "more correct" afterall - feels wrong for us, and how rythm correlates to life in general.. But that I can write about another time..

Last edited by lenieNt Force on Feb-09-2012 at 19:37

quote:

Originally posted by Richard Butler My partner in crime is an excellent bassist and spent years in bands.

You must be talking about me lol

quote:

Originally posted by Richard Butler L4C - this thing about only experienced musicians really understanding groove, is I think a clumsy point. Very influencial greats of DANCE that could'nt play a note, produced tracks that a great many people would slot into the groovey pigeon whole. ................., ......You repeately say that EDM people only listen to EDM, what evidence to you base this assertion upon?

On the end of the day Richard, doesn't really matter, you do what you love to do and another people opinion, maybe valid from strictly theoretical perspective but completely irrelevant to what you do and your success. I learn that over the years my friend and stop listen to people who are telling you what to do and restrain your creativity --> just use your judgment, it is a matter of going through this “falling and succeeding” experience throughout your life and don’t be afraid of that, this is how we develop, learning and have progress.

quote:

Originally posted by Richard Butler Your'e an intelligent guy with incredible musical know how, but I don't think this entitles you to be king of every thought.

Another valid point Richard, for some reason those very bright and smart guys (musically speaking) are intellectually incapable of having mature and intelligent conversation lol, I call them “subject experts” with underdeveloped social skills. Don’t get me wrong, I know a few guys over here which are exceptions, very bright, smart, with great sense of humor and willing to work with you/help you --> so Richard, there is a light on the end of the tunnel my friend and again focus on the stuff you love to do and try to do your best, this is all what we can/should expect from ourselves

quote:

Originally posted by Richard Butler I would loose hands down to you if we were discussing compostional matters, but I'm not going to tip toe around and suck cock at your every utterance.

Never lose your dignity/integrity, stay your ground and be respectful to others, this is the only way you will have their respect back!!!

As for closing statement from me, hmmm, can’t offer a lot of theoretical knowledge/help to others because don’t have that much compere to other people over here but if ask to help someone --> will do everything, whatever is physically possible to help that person – it is just me, I guess.

Cheers Richard,

Darek

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