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TranceAddict Forums > Other > Political Discussion / Debate > US VS. Saddam
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trancedfarmer
Anti-Cheese Crusader



Registered: Aug 2002
Location: Seattle, Washington

quote:
Originally posted by ABTsportsline
actually that is incorrect, shelf life on some chemical weapons is damn near forever. Like anthrax, for instance - there is no expiration, which makes it extremely difficult to get rid of it.

And as for Saddam having enough chem/bio warfare to kill every person on this planet, it is proven but i hope you understand i cant give you access to the official DoD site. I haven't been to these places myself (they are in the heart of iraq), but have seen videos of these grounds, which had several armed guards walking around in HazMat suits around miles and miles (as far as the eye can see) of stored canisters of this stuff - and that was just one production facility.

As far as the hospitals with people and weapons in them, its quite hard to stage a "rescue" operation from a hospital in the middle of an enemy's stronghold - you could send 100 of your soldiers in there and they'd die, period dot! The US does not bomb every hospital and mosque, so don't be alarmed.... and however cruel saddam may be at storing weapons in hospitals and the like, usually he vacates them from patients, so its not an all-the-time thing that innocents get killed.

As far as tranced farmers question about the hospitals, etc in afghanistan, we can blame intelligence for that. We also learned our lesson from that. We relied heavily on afghani-intelligence b/c of their familiarity with the country (obviously). problem was, we didn't realize that there were hundreds of different warlords vying for control of the country once the taliban was overthrown, so we were getting false intelligence FROM their people! Again, i work in Intel. and i have seen these reports myself. Its unfortunate, and granted, the US should not have simply gone off word from some groups, but there was a lot more involved, and a lot of good intelligence offered to us first to earn our "trust" with bombings.

And, again, the US carries the brunt of the verbal assaults from news crews around the world, b/c seriously, would you be that upset about it if their own people caused the bombings? No, however your attention would be drawn if the USA had anything to do with it.

Again, back to the easily-adopted "Blame the US"-isms going on around here...

-ABT-


im not talking about aghanistan... in iraq during the last ten years many civilian housing units, hospitals, businesses and non militrary targets have been hit... so many examples its mindboggling... and tonight, i will go into some archives and share some of this later... its hard to say that their choice of using missles fired from the sky is better than other forms of combat, cause either way people get injured or perish, but the amount of "mistakes" that they made and the amount of human beings that died is saddening.... there is a good deal of information on all of this out their... its heart-breaking to read about human beings being dealt with in such a way.. and for what... i have read stories and heard lectures by professors that have caused me to cry. i used to be much more socially conscious than i am now, but what i gained from all of my studies was not a hatred for the U.S. (even though i enjoy joking about it sometimes) but a frustraition with its actions towards others. in reality i have no reason to spam the United staets, its just another player in the game, and not the worst either. but i feel responsible to dictate my objection to continued offensives into a country that doesnt know whats coming... with no electronic communications in rural communities, mistakes happening, people unexpectedly dying, losing crops, losing their business, losing their water source... it blows me away... i dont think that iraq should be dealt with using violence... but, i also recognise that our world is addicted to violence, it sponsors growth and progress in many ways... economically, physically, even mentally...

i once read a book by one of my favorite authors, Thomas Merton, a Trappist Monk from Kentucky... It was a collection of essays on Non-Violence called The Non-Violent Alternative . It was published in the face of the Vietnam and "Cold war and discusses many of the issues we are discussing here.. check it out... he does not consider himself a pacifist, and that is what you will find most interesting about his veiws...

Old Post Nov-08-2002 01:22  United States
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trancedfarmer
Anti-Cheese Crusader



Registered: Aug 2002
Location: Seattle, Washington

quote:
Originally posted by ABTsportsline
ok now you are just being a smartass...

again, for deterrence... just because we are developing doesn't mean we will use them for pre-emptive action. That is your assumation. We have had nukes for awhile, didn't use them in the korean war, didn't use them in vietnam, did we? Didn't use them in granada, didn't use them in desert storm. In fact the only time we have used Nukes in the last 30 years was in the making of Independence Day (the movie), when the guys in houston launched one at the big thing hovering over the city! Ok, a joke...

Anyway, we have many different kind of nukes - bombs that are strictly meant to be dropped, ICBM's (intercontinental ballistic missiles), which are self-launched and maintain their own pattern, and these newer ones that are small and self-sufficient that require almost no "crew" to operate. Again, defense measures. Most of them are on our shores and are meant for deterrence - haven't launched any recently have we? (rhetorical question - we haven't).
If the enemy knows you carry a big stick, they will hesitate to use their smaller stick.

-ABT-


its depressing to see that kind of non-sense being posted

Old Post Nov-08-2002 01:24  United States
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ABTsportsline
Disabled Veteran



Registered: May 2001
Location: Rural WA, USA

quote:
Originally posted by trancedfarmer
its depressing to see that kind of non-sense being posted


ok how is that non-sense?
what makes you think that if the USA deleted all of its nukes tomorrow, that the soviet union, korea, china, iraq, et al would not all use their nukes the following day to attack whoever they damn well pleased?

I'd be willing to swear on my mothers grave that if we did get rid of all of ours, we would be the victims and you'd be praying to allah right now. Or speaking russian.

By your logic, policemen should not have guns then, right? why use guns to prevent crime? because sometimes you need to carry a bigger stick!

and remember, the enemy is always doing research and having advances in technology and warfare, and its up to us to stay ahead of them in that department, so they never have the edge. sounds stupid, but its the only way that works.


___________________
Peace.

Old Post Nov-08-2002 05:23  United States
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trancedfarmer
Anti-Cheese Crusader



Registered: Aug 2002
Location: Seattle, Washington

nothing makes me think that other nuclear armed countries wouldnt try that... but whats the point of having them anyway... everyones gonna die either way so fuck that.... they dont need nuclear weapons.. they only threaten the safety of people around the world and here in america

Old Post Nov-08-2002 05:44  United States
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Tuikkari
tranceaddict in training



Registered: Oct 2002
Location: Hämeenlinna, Finland

quote:
Originally posted by ABTsportsline
ok how is that non-sense?
what makes you think that if the USA deleted all of its nukes tomorrow, that the soviet union, korea, china, iraq, et al would not all use their nukes the following day to attack whoever they damn well pleased?


Do you really think its all because of USA and its nuclear power that these countries you listed wont invade/attack who ever they want? In my point of view there's no need to have enemies anymore. We live in a globalized world and most of the countries are very unwilling to start any wars. From this list I exclude Iraq and israel. When you say USA is global protector I and most of the other non-usa citizens see it as needless interfering. I think USA has made "alliances" too easily. Like who gave afganistan its weapons, same goes for Iraq. USA rushes to every conflict with too much rush. Thats why its probably the only western country which is hated so badly.
quote:

I'd be willing to swear on my mothers grave that if we did get rid of all of ours, we would be the victims and you'd be praying to allah right now. Or speaking russian.
[/quote}

Russia tried to invade Finland in ww2, it failed. Finnish losses in that war: ~30 000, russian ~350 000

I think and hope that those ridiculous wars belongs to the past. Globalization is the key for this to happen. Now we know whats behind borders and wont accept riculous reasons for starting a war (this is only for western countries, I wouldn't bet on middle east ones).
[quote]
By your logic, policemen should not have guns then, right? why use guns to prevent crime? because sometimes you need to carry a bigger stick!

and remember, the enemy is always doing research and having advances in technology and warfare, and its up to us to stay ahead of them in that department, so they never have the edge. sounds stupid, but its the only way that works.


I agree with you in some of your points. Our countries must research and create cures for biological and chemical weapons, as long as there is countries developing those for attacking purposes. Same goes for nuclear weapons, better that 10 countries haves than just one. If those countries are stable ones. nukes would be too big power advantage for just one country to have. Terrorist strikes are made against USA because of its politics, not because terrorists are evil or the just want to strike someone. Its the truth. USA should change its politics, because its the rational one in the game. You can't negotiate with fundamentalists, they are now fighting their holy war and dying for their beliefs (because they are going to have was it 99 virgins in heaven for dying for beliefs) though one reseacher said that "99" ment grain not virgins and he got death threats because of that

I think USA is afraid of the enemies it has made and expecially the ones with mass destruction weapons and want to harm the making of those in any way they can. Don't you see that these weapons and terrorism is the only way they can harm USA? Their military can't stand a chance against US military.

damn my english skills.

Old Post Nov-08-2002 16:10  Finland
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JPJH
Supreme tranceaddict



Registered: Jun 2002
Location: New York

quote:
Originally posted by Tuikkari
Do you really think its all because of USA and its nuclear power that these countries you listed wont invade/attack who ever they want? In my point of view there's no need to have enemies anymore. We live in a globalized world and most of the countries are very unwilling to start any wars. From this list I exclude Iraq and israel. When you say USA is global protector I and most of the other non-usa citizens see it as needless interfering. I think USA has made "alliances" too easily. Like who gave afganistan its weapons, same goes for Iraq. USA rushes to every conflict with too much rush. Thats why its probably the only western country which is hated so badly.


what do you suppose we do..sit on our buts and watch the rest of the world destroy themselves..im sure we'd get flamed for that too..its a catch 22 for the americans..thats the truth...and yes imo i think its better to act on prevention then to see what MIGHT happen..then the question arises on what side to take..ahh this is where americans are always wrong..it doesnt matter who we try to help because the other side will hate us more..

Old Post Nov-08-2002 16:23  United States
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JohnSmith
Agent Smith



Registered: Apr 2002
Location: Kamloops

quote:
Originally posted by Tuikkari

I think USA is afraid of the enemies it has made and expecially the ones with mass destruction weapons and want to harm the making of those in any way they can. Don't you see that these weapons and terrorism is the only way they can harm USA? Their military can't stand a chance against US military.

damn my english skills.


I think your english skills are just fine Tuikkari. A few small problems, but overall i understood your entire post. In fact you write better than a lot of people whom english is their first language!

by the way, i agree with you.

Old Post Nov-08-2002 17:21  Canada
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CortexBomb
Slave to the Dark Beat



Registered: Jun 2002
Location: Watching the Waves under Red Skies on My World

quote:
Originally posted by ABTsportsline
ok now you are just being a smartass...


I'm failing to see how that was a smart-ass comment to make, it's a legitimite concern and point IMHO... :shrug:

quote:

again, for deterrence... just because we are developing doesn't mean we will use them for pre-emptive action. That is your assumation.


The only point I was making was that in stories circulating about said "mini-nukes" plans for *pre-emptive* use were supposedly outlined.

And to me, even outlining something like that shows a flagrant disregard for ethics IMHO.

quote:

Most of them are on our shores and are meant for deterrence - haven't launched any recently have we? (rhetorical question - we haven't).
If the enemy knows you carry a big stick, they will hesitate to use their smaller stick.

-ABT-


I agree that complete disarming isn't a realistic scenario right now, but how do smaller nukes equal a bigger stick? And do you need deterrence on the scale that currently exists?

I read a nice book that came out in the 80's called "With Enough Shovels: Reagen, Bush, and Nuclear War" recently that talked about how the policy of deterrence, as it's existed since then, is absolutely ridiculous. Even during the Cold War the US would come up with a weapon, then a counter to it, and then a counter to that. The arms race spiralled out of control from that paranoia.

With no other super powers in town anymore I think the concept of further escalation is more ridiculous than ever.

Right now the number one issue facing the States is terrorism, and nuclear weapons (or any other weapons) aren't exactly effective methods of warding it off; so why do we still have enough bombs to blow up the world 500 times over? And why are we developing further nuclear capacity?

I'm just failing to follow the concept here...

Old Post Nov-08-2002 18:56  United Nations
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TranceAddict Forums > Other > Political Discussion / Debate > US VS. Saddam
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