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occrider Actually, I think the ideal objective for a government is to serve its citizens rather than govern or rule over them. What's that saying in the US constitution, A Government of the People, by the People, and for the People?

The act of governance is to exercise authority, and yes, this means it is serving the people, for better or for worse, the government decides whether it is going to war or not, it is partitioned into departments, the army being a department, the government controls the army, not the other way around.

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That being said, I would be careful characterizing Hamas's actions as "Palestinian's taking justice into their own hands."

You will notice that i always emphasize "justice" It is an intangible concept, "justice" can't be measured, an eye for an eye, so to speak, it is subject to perception, what we are seeing in Israel is an infinite loop of revenge. Fighting fire with fire in Israel does not work now and will not work in the future.

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but I don't see what my education level has to do when I say something to the point. I have had professors with which I both disagreed and agreed with

That is because humans have different opinions

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And yes, current rational logic tells us that a government only came to be because people needed to come together to defend themselves against others.

No. Government has evolved, from primitive communal gatherings of our archaic ancestors, to rudimentary forms of despotism and absolutism, it came to be to so the powerful can subjugate the weak

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You don't even have to believe that the government is good for the people (alla Hobbes) to believe and follow it.

This is true, think of the alternative, Anarchy. Anarchy empowers authority

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However it is quiet necessary that once you agree to live under a government you follows its rule wether you disagree or agree with its actions. There can be no government if people on every decision follow their emotions and obey it or not.

If this is true, how have the forms of government evolved throughout history? Modern government has been developed through a process called trial and error, hopefully a few hundred years in the future humanity can look back on todays government as being violent and primitive.

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There can be no government if people on every decision follow their emotions and obey it or not. Imagine for yourself what life would be like if ALL people chose to obey whatever law they wanted, and neglect the others. What type of world would that be? I'll tell you what world that would be, it would be the world of the extremist Palestinian groups...

I'd suggest you rent a movie called “Equilibrium” Christian Bale is in it (American Psycho, Breath of Fire) excellent actor, i can see how you would agree with the form of government demonstrated in that movie
Until then ponder this:

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Friedrich Nietzsche Morality is the best of all devices for leading mankind by the nose.

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The Palestinian problem in this sense is similar to Columbia which has in de facto many goverments over one country, creating an uneasy anarchy.

Palestine was fine until 1948

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Using the premise of war, it is usually an objective to destroy the other nation's goverment (as opposed to its people). Still you are crossing a VERY VERY dangerous line when you let people "take justice into their own hands".

I agree with you, but then again, i didn't grow up in Palestine.

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You know the KKK, the american terrorist group, took justice into their own hands when they lost faith in their government to protect them from black people who they believed would change the dynamics of their society, so they launced a terror campagin in the South and killed many innocent black people. But despite wide-popular support in the South the Federal government was able to crack-down and restore law and order, which only the US government after all shoudl administer.

It's sad isn't it ;\

Just curious, is the ELF still up there with the top internal American terrorist groups? I saw a documentary on it a few years ago, they were rated the number 1 terrorist threat to the USA before 9/11 if memory serves.

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This is a completely different question, and I can make a pretty good case that the Israel is actually acting in accordance with the baseless and collapsing organization we like to call the UN. On the othernote, I can't see anyone even making a halfass attempt at claiming the Palestinian terrorist groups are acting leagally under the UN.

I never claimed the Palestinian terrorist groups are acting legally, as i have stated before, I do not condone terrorism of any kind.

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Look I'm not saying agree to one philosophy. I'm just saying PICK ONE. Because right now you have none, you are moving through life thinking appels and oranges can be equated, everything that is white can become black, and everything black can become white.

Remember writing this:

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but I don't see what my education level has to do when I say something to the point.

but i don't see what my philosophical preference has to do when i say something to the point..
From inferences i have made in the past, people that pick a certain philosophy as a guideline to which they want live life by, will follow this template even through aspects that they don't believe in. Of all the philosophies i have read, i don't agree with one exclusively. I'd prefer my own personal amalgamation of several philosophies.

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Ya you know what, I do find it funny. I really do find it funny that someone had the idea of calling some pissed off soldiers wiping their asses with radicial elementy school drawings terrorism when you compare that act (which did not kill anyone) with some of the horrible tradegies that are going around in that area.

Indeed, look at the deaths of civilians on both sides..

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How come you can't find the humor in that?

I'm not a sadist

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I am thinking about others on this forum, and I still say IT IS A DUMB POINT. We know what terrorism is, and we know the Israelis are not conducted it as a matter of policy. Wether we supprot the Israelis are not, this SHOULD be indisputable...

Hahaha, i definitely find the humour in that %D

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In fact why are we disputing it. I have defended my claim very well, now its your turn to make your case. Equate Israel with terrorism. And when I mean terrorism I mean gun-ho, murder civilians in the street for the sake of murdering civilians in the street type terrorism.

I'm a bit busy at the moment, I am assuming you would appreciate me giving this contentious issue its own post, rather than rushing it now, i will address this issue later tonight if I'm not busy, or tomorrow morning if i don't have a hangover. Note that I am not evading the question.

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No it doesn't matter.. even a bad government such as North Korea takes responsibility for its actions and makes sure there is not rival group with in the nation speaking on its behalf.

There is no such thing as a rival groups in North Korea, 400,000 prisoners have died in labor camps since 1972, for speaking out against the regime, any criticism of Kim Jong-Il, will result in imprisonment for a family of up to three generations, because these prisons are filling up, the prison guards are encouraged to destroy a generation, rewards are given if you force a pregnant female into an arbitrary abortion by kicking her in the stomach

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Ya I don't get this either.. its obviously a big waste of time. I think it is beause people like to feel smart when they think in their own mind they have made superior arguments to others...

I suffer from delusions of grandeur

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No I simply have a Bachelor in Political Science

I sense subtle self promotion in your posts also

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Maria Montessori A great deal of time and intellectual force are lost in the world, because the false seems great and the truth so small and insignificant."

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Originally posted by Durafei BTW, Israel has just killed a VERY VERY senior Hamas official. No innocent people were killed in that case. Don't know what will that accomplish, but at least you can see that Israely military indeed tries to only kill those directly responsible for suicide bombings.(I do realize that innocent people still die on Palestinian side, having said that, Israely military does try to avoid that) Though I'm sure you pro-palestinians will cry again that Israel shouldn't target terrorists.

Its very rare that innocent civilians are not killed during these operations to assasinate these terrorist leaders. Nevertheless, this killing will only dig deeper, more graves to put innocent isreali civilians into. The very fact that vengence is always declared when these leaders are killed and even when their own innocents are killed, shows to me that Israel, after repeatedly witnesseing a pattern of vengence, seems to dismiss these targeted attacks as something positive. In reality, although it may be great that the this leader is dead, a number of new "leaders" will form as a result of the martyre like perception that is embraced.

KNowing that vengence turns into terrorism after murdering these leaders, why would Israel add fuel to the already growing fire? How is this going to advance the peace process?

The last terrorist attack was executed by a relative of a militant leader who was killed

If he wasnt killed, and instead arrested and questioned by isreali authority, those 20 people on that bus would be living. But Israel seems to ignore patterns of vengence.

Also, the nature in which they killed this leader was irresponsible. By firing missiles into a crowded city street is pretty reckless. Do you honestly beleive that this method was in the interest of reducing as many innocent civilian lives? ALthough no one innocent was killed, it is clear to me that if they were trying to avoid innocent death, they would not have fired their missiles into the street with people walking about. But they do not care... as long as they get their terrorist, its all good......and the innocent people who die as a result...well they were there at the wrong place; at the worng time.

___________________
"This place isn't big enough for me to blow it up."
-MARCO V

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Originally posted by Cyrus King Its very rare that innocent civilians are not killed during these operations to assasinate these terrorist leaders. Nevertheless, this killing will only dig deeper, more graves to put innocent isreali civilians into. The very fact that vengence is always declared when these leaders are killed and even when their own innocents are killed, shows to me that Israel, after repeatedly witnesseing a pattern of vengence, seems to dismiss these targeted attacks as something positive. In reality, although it may be great that the this leader is dead, a number of new "leaders" will form as a result of the martyre like perception that is embraced. KNowing that vengence turns into terrorism after murdering these leaders, why would Israel add fuel to the already growing fire? How is this going to advance the peace process? The last terrorist attack was executed by a relative of a militant leader who was killed If he wasnt killed, and instead arrested and questioned by isreali authority, those 20 people on that bus would be living. But Israel seems to ignore patterns of vengence.

so all israel has to do is ignore that these terror groups exsist and sit back and do nothing, right?

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Also, the nature in which they killed this leader was irresponsible. By firing missiles into a crowded city street is pretty reckless. Do you honestly beleive that this method was in the interest of reducing as many innocent civilian lives? ALthough no one innocent was killed, it is clear to me that if they were trying to avoid innocent death, they would not have fired their missiles into the street with people walking about. But they do not care... as long as they get their terrorist, its all good......and the innocent people who die as a result...well they were there at the wrong place; at the worng time.

we are both not military experts, but to me if in fact the mission was to kill him, a precise missle attack from above seems like it would cause a lot less civilian casualties then sending in a convy of ground troops to do the same job. but then agian, i cant predict the future.

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If God is the answer, it must have been a very stupid question.

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Originally posted by Cyrus King The last terrorist attack was executed by a relative of a militant leader who was killed

btw just letting you know there is a big assumption on your part. although the militant who got killed (the one who's relative did the revenge) you have no clue to how this came about. maybe israeli soldiers went to his house wanting to interegate him or arrest him and then he shot at them causing a fire fight in which he died. maybe it didnt happen like that. point is you speculating that israel went out to kill him as a mission. this whole revenge on 20 innocent israelis may have been an excuse. maybe not. we dont know, unless maybe you do but you negelected to tell us?

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If God is the answer, it must have been a very stupid question.

it should be quiet for a week or two now, then the inevitable repeat all over again.....

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Also, the nature in which they killed this leader was irresponsible. By firing missiles into a crowded city street is pretty reckless. Do you honestly beleive that this method was in the interest of reducing as many innocent civilian lives? ALthough no one innocent was killed, it is clear to me that if they were trying to avoid innocent death, they would not have fired their missiles into the street with people walking about. But they do not care... as long as they get their terrorist, its all good......and the innocent people who die as a result...well they were there at the wrong place; at the worng time.

Tell me something, do you think Israeli military is *interested* in killing innocent palestinians?? If so - why ? Does it help their cause ? Does it help Israeli economy ?? The answer to all these questions is no. The reason because they killid him on the busy street (which is something neither you nor me can really confirm) was because leaders like him are not easy to track down. For the same reason it's not that easy to arrest him. Most of the time they are hiding. You have to seize the opportunity, otherwise it will escape you.

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My Blog: durafei.blogspot.com - Last Update March 23, 2006

BTW, notice how all pro-palestinians on this board justify (like it's normal for that to happen) the latest suicide bombing, yet they condemn the last 2 killings of known terrorists.

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My Blog: durafei.blogspot.com - Last Update March 23, 2006

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Originally posted by Izzy so all israel has to do is ignore that these terror groups exsist and sit back and do nothing, right?

Izzy, I know you could do better than this. I did not say that they should ignore them, instead, take a more responisble approach in dealing with them. Why do these terror groups exist. To rid ISrael? Its never going to happen.. this is something they know. They have repeatedly said that this is their way of 'defense'. That it is a 'war' in their eyes. They should look further into the root of the problem instead of "sitting back and doing nothing" like you think i assume.

Terrorists fighting state terrorists....im not surprised.

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we are both not military experts, but to me if in fact the mission was to kill him, a precise missle attack from above seems like it would cause a lot less civilian casualties then sending in a convy of ground troops to do the same job. but then agian, i cant predict the future.

But these missile attacks are far from precise....many times...if not always, civilians die as a result of these missile attaks. Im glad in this case..no one died, but i did read there were seriously injured people around the car. A convoy of trucks surrounding the car and arresting the man would be more reasonable.

Im sure if terrorists were working within Israel, the IDF wouldnt bomb their cars as they drove through crowded Israeli streets!

___________________
"This place isn't big enough for me to blow it up."
-MARCO V

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Originally posted by Izzy btw just letting you know there is a big assumption on your part. although the militant who got killed (the one who's relative did the revenge) you have no clue to how this came about. maybe israeli soldiers went to his house wanting to interegate him or arrest him and then he shot at them causing a fire fight in which he died. maybe it didnt happen like that. point is you speculating that israel went out to kill him as a mission. this whole revenge on 20 innocent israelis may have been an excuse. maybe not. we dont know, unless maybe you do but you negelected to tell us?

well....Hamas has publicly stated that it was a revenge attack.

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Hamas said it carried out the bus attack as retribution for the killing of members of the group, which is sworn to Israel's destruction, in Israeli army raids that have continued despite the truce.

http://reuters.com/newsArticle.jhtm...storyID=3315377

I also heard on BBC news last night that i was a direct relative that blew up the bus. I will try to find out more on that.

With respect to the terrorist leaders that are killed, you are right.. we dont know the circumstances as to how they die...but dont you find it funny that they ALWAYS end up dying by getting killed in a fire fight?

In my eyes, Israel cant seem to arrest these top leaders, becuase they always end up dead. I really dont think they are spared their own lives.

___________________
"This place isn't big enough for me to blow it up."
-MARCO V

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Originally posted by Durafei Tell me something, do you think Israeli military is *interested* in killing innocent palestinians?? If so - why ? Does it help their cause ? Does it help Israeli economy ?? The answer to all these questions is no. The reason because they killid him on the busy street (which is something neither you nor me can really confirm) was because leaders like him are not easy to track down. For the same reason it's not that easy to arrest him. Most of the time they are hiding. You have to seize the opportunity, otherwise it will escape you.

You cant deny that there is much hate toward palestinians fromt he Isreali military. Just as the pals hate the dsoldiers, soldies are not fond of them either...and this animosity is reflected by the violence that occurs on both peoples. You make it sound as though i think the IDF is out to just kill innocent civilians.. that its part of their job...
However, civilians do die becuase i honestly beleive that many IDF soldiers dont give a fuck about them... if they die.. they die..oh well..they shouldnt be in the way....

Its this reckless attitude that has me angered. When kids are shot as they play ball outside, is not an excuse. If they cared, they would hesitate to pull the trigger, but they are palestinians...who cares

___________________
"This place isn't big enough for me to blow it up."
-MARCO V

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Originally posted by Durafei BTW, notice how all pro-palestinians on this board justify (like it's normal for that to happen) the latest suicide bombing, yet they condemn the last 2 killings of known terrorists.

I think that terrorism is one the most dispicable things ever, and that is why i condemn both the terror caused by palestinians and the state terror that is executed by Isreal against the pals. I condemn any killing.

Supporting the actions of any of the two in my eyes is justifying terror.

Read this to get another viewpoint, that from a Jew.

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/pages/...sID=0&listSrc=Y

___________________
"This place isn't big enough for me to blow it up."
-MARCO V

Last edited by Cyrus King on Aug-22-2003 at 18:19