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Trancer-X
mutatis mutandis



Registered: Jul 2001
Location: Shambhala

http://plaguepuppy.net/public_html/...low_quality.wmv


Old Post Dec-11-2005 01:35  United States
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Trancer-X
mutatis mutandis



Registered: Jul 2001
Location: Shambhala























___________________
quote:
"Learn, child, to catch a hint through whatever agency it may be given. 'Sermons may be preached through stones."

- Helena Petrovna Blavatsky, Letters from the Masters of Wisdom, first series, p. 74, letter 31

Old Post Dec-11-2005 01:44  United States
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Arbiter
Naked Power Organ



Registered: May 2002
Location:

quote:
Originally posted by Trancer-X
LOL - IMO, an errantly swung sledghammer that really hasn't proven anything.


One cannot prove much of anything to the conspiracy theorists, as it is quite central to their pathology that they will dismiss any evidence against their preconceived position as fabrication or propaganda.

Indeed, I can think of no reason to dignify their sophistry with any attempt at "proof." After all, it is the conspiracy theorists themselves that are the ones who have some proving to do.

Inevitably but nevertheless ironically their attempts at proof are characterized by hearsay, conjecture, and the ever popular argumentum ad ignorantiam, the very kind of easily fabricated or misrepresented argumentation that one would expect a genuine conspirator to use and that the conspiracy theorist is always so offended by if and when it doesn't happen support the position that they've rather arbitrarily taken up.

And although my refusal to engage them in a dialogue regarding their misguided "insights" into the flavor-of-the-month conspiracy will no doubt always be rationalized as closed-mindedness, what they fail to understand in their characteristically desperate search for not the truth but instead a truth is that intellectual integrity is by far the superior virtue to open-mindedness.

Accordingly I will not deign to concern myself with the grotesque particulars of this or any other conspiracy theory until, at the very least, I can find an advocate of the theory in question who does not exhibit the marked lack of intellectual integrity which I described previously. Regrettably, if unsurprisingly, there appears to be no such advocate in this case, therefore I shall remain quite appropriately aloof.

Old Post Dec-11-2005 05:36 
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Trancer-X
mutatis mutandis



Registered: Jul 2001
Location: Shambhala

I guess I could counter that by saying that one cannot prove much of anything to the brainwashed, easily led (misguided) imbeciles of this world. They are completely and totally awash in their own preconceived notions that everything is okay and that their corrupt, corporately sponsored governments have only their best interests at heart. Luckily, having previously learned from a relatively high ranking intelligence agent that much of what is espoused by our pseudo-democratically elected government is at the minimum just blatant propaganda geared toward manipulating those imbeciles, I no longer tend to see things through such rose-colored glasses.


But hey, the chicanery seems to work very well for those who seek to establish (what seems to be akin to) sovereign power - just as Bush and Co. had recently captured the majority of our voting population by their easily provoked and reliably acted upon emotions right after the conspired attacks of 9/11 (well, that along with some uncounted ballot trickery in both Florida and Ohio.) The Machiavellian adherent, Neo-Convicts are fully aware of the masses docility and have taken advantage of the fact that most people really need to be told what to think in order to make it through the day. I must digress, however, as obviously there is a small minority who differ in those regards. It's because of that minority that I tend to maintain hope that it's possible that all could be well again some day. As for the rest of the subservient masses, I can really only pity them for being so naively misguided in their continuously enduring pursuit of material wealth which has been set in front of them like the proverbial dangling carrot.

While I try my best to suppress my scathing contempt for the emotionally and intellectually programmed fools with their relatively underdeveloped critical thinking skills, I do actually feel sorry for you guys for being so unwittingly blind to what is staring you straight in the face. (To be honest, it's really quite saddening.)



quote:
Originally posted by Arbiter
One cannot prove much of anything to the conspiracy theorists, as it is quite central to their pathology that they will dismiss any evidence against their preconceived position as fabrication or propaganda.

Indeed, I can think of no reason to dignify their sophistry with any attempt at "proof." After all, it is the conspiracy theorists themselves that are the ones who have some proving to do.

Inevitably but nevertheless ironically their attempts at proof are characterized by hearsay, conjecture, and the ever popular argumentum ad ignorantiam, the very kind of easily fabricated or misrepresented argumentation that one would expect a genuine conspirator to use and that the conspiracy theorist is always so offended by if and when it doesn't happen support the position that they've rather arbitrarily taken up.

And although my refusal to engage them in a dialogue regarding their misguided "insights" into the flavor-of-the-month conspiracy will no doubt always be rationalized as closed-mindedness, what they fail to understand in their characteristically desperate search for not the truth but instead a truth is that intellectual integrity is by far the superior virtue to open-mindedness.

Accordingly I will not deign to concern myself with the grotesque particulars of this or any other conspiracy theory until, at the very least, I can find an advocate of the theory in question who does not exhibit the marked lack of intellectual integrity which I described previously. Regrettably, if unsurprisingly, there appears to be no such advocate in this case, therefore I shall remain quite appropriately aloof.


___________________
quote:
"Learn, child, to catch a hint through whatever agency it may be given. 'Sermons may be preached through stones."

- Helena Petrovna Blavatsky, Letters from the Masters of Wisdom, first series, p. 74, letter 31

Old Post Dec-11-2005 10:53  United States
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Trancer-X
mutatis mutandis



Registered: Jul 2001
Location: Shambhala

quote:
Originally posted by SpecRadio
Only the people who have done research and have been interested in it will give normal thoughtful responses.


And it's by those of us who have been endowed with such irrepressible intellectual curiosities that throughout time immemorial have unabatedly sought to break free from the fetters of both physical and mental servitude which the tyrannically inclined have always sought to impose upon us.

If it wasn't for the influences of such free thinking luminaries as John Locke, Jean-Jacques Rousseau and (more importantly) Thomas Paine, the ideologically benevolent framework of our great Nation may not have ever been fully developed and/or carried forth.

It would seem as though intellectual curiosity and ideologically utopian thinking (such as Paine's, Locke's and Rousseau's) has come under attack by those who wish to usurp the collective power of the people - but don't worry, because we won't go down without a fight!


BTW - did anyone here know that the statue which was erected in England in memory of Thomas Paine has him holding his book The Rights Of Man, upside down?





___________________
quote:
"Learn, child, to catch a hint through whatever agency it may be given. 'Sermons may be preached through stones."

- Helena Petrovna Blavatsky, Letters from the Masters of Wisdom, first series, p. 74, letter 31

Old Post Dec-12-2005 00:51  United States
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Trancer-X
mutatis mutandis



Registered: Jul 2001
Location: Shambhala

quote:
Originally posted...


Anyway, here's an interesting vid that details the initial response to the explosions that were going off in the buildings, etc.

[[ LINK REMOVED ]]




For anyone who still has doubts regarding the claims of bombs going off in the buildings - I highly recommend downloading and watching this short video. Even those of you with the amazingly short attention spans should find this of interest.

Old Post Dec-12-2005 03:21  United States
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Trancer-X
mutatis mutandis



Registered: Jul 2001
Location: Shambhala
Re: Re: Responce To Occrider

quote:
Originally posted by occrider
Well I did my research on this letter and as it turns out, Kevin Ryan was not speaking for Underwriters Laboratories, he in fact stated that he was speaking for himself, and he was not in charge of their structural analysis or material science division. The exact position Ryan held at UL at the time of interest is "Site Manager at UL's water testing business, Environmental Health Laboratories."


Who ever said anything to the contrary?

Here's the original letter with the original footnotes attached, with emphasis placed by me:

quote:
From Kevin R. Ryan
Site Manager of the Environmental Health Laboratories
South Bend, Indiana
(Company site - www.ehl.cc)

A division of Underwriters Laboratories, Inc.
(Company site - www.ul.com)

To Frank Gayle
Deputy Chief of the Metallurgy Division
Material Science and Engineering Laboratory
National Institute of Standards and Technology
NIST and the World Trade Center at wtc.nist.gov


From: Kevin R Ryan/SBN/ULI
To: [email protected]
Date: 11/11/2004

Dr. Gayle,

Having recently reviewed your team's report of 10/19/04, I felt the need to contact you directly.

As I'm sure you know, the company I work for certified the steel components used in the construction of the WTC buildings. In requesting information from both our CEO and Fire Protection business manager last year, I learned that they did not agree on the essential aspects of the story, except for one thing - that the samples we certified met all requirements. They suggested we all be patient and understand that UL was working with your team, and that tests would continue through this year. I'm aware of UL's attempts to help, including performing tests on models of the floor assemblies. But the results of these tests appear to indicate that the buildings should have easily withstood the thermal stress caused by pools of burning jet fuel.

There continues to be a number of "experts" making public claims about how the WTC buildings fell. One such person, Dr. Hyman Brown from the WTC construction crew, claims that the buildings collapsed due to fires at 2000F melting the steel (1). He states "What caused the building to collapse is the airplane fuel burning at 2,000 degrees Fahrenheit. The steel in that five-floor area melts." Additionally, the newspaper that quotes him says "Just-released preliminary findings from a National Institute of Standards and Technology study of the World Trade Center collapse support Brown's theory."

We know that the steel components were certified to ASTM E119. The time temperature curves for this standard require the samples to be exposed to temperatures around 2000F for several hours. And as we all agree, the steel applied met those specifications. Additionally, I think we can all agree that even un-fireproofed steel will not melt until reaching red-hot temperatures of nearly 3000F (2). Why Dr. Brown would imply that 2000F would melt the high-grade steel used in those buildings makes no sense at all.

The results of your recently published metallurgical tests seem to clear things up (3), and support your team's August 2003 update as detailed by the Associated Press (4), in which you were ready to "rule out weak steel as a contributing factor in the collapse". The evaluation of paint deformation and spheroidization seem very straightforward, and you noted that the samples available were adequate for the investigation. Your comments suggest that the steel was probably exposed to temperatures of only about 500F (250C), which is what one might expect from a thermodynamic analysis of the situation.

However the summary of the new NIST report seems to ignore your findings, as it suggests that these low temperatures caused exposed bits of the building's steel core to "soften and buckle"(5). Additionally this summary states that the perimeter columns softened, yet your findings make clear that "most perimeter panels (157 of 160) saw no temperature above 250C". To soften steel for the purposes of forging, normally temperatures need to be above 1100C (6). However, this new summary report suggests that much lower temperatures were be able to not only soften the steel in a matter of minutes, but lead to rapid structural collapse.

This story just does not add up. If steel from those buildings did soften or melt, I'm sure we can all agree that this was certainly not due to jet fuel fires of any kind, let alone the briefly burning fires in those towers. That fact should be of great concern to all Americans. Alternatively, the contention that this steel did fail at temperatures around 250C suggests that the majority of deaths on 9/11 were due to a safety-related failure. That suggestion should be of great concern to my company.

There is no question that the events of 9/11 are the emotional driving force behind the War on Terror. And the issue of the WTC collapse is at the crux of the story of 9/11. My feeling is that your metallurgical tests are at the crux of the crux of the crux. Either you can make sense of what really happened to those buildings, and communicate this quickly, or we all face the same destruction and despair that come from global decisions based on disinformation and "chatter".

Thanks for your efforts to determine what happened on that day. You may know that there are a number of other current and former government employees that have risked a great deal to help us to know the truth. I've copied one of these people on this message as a sign of respect and support. I believe your work could also be a nucleus of fact around which the truth, and thereby global peace and justice, can grow again. Please do what you can to quickly eliminate the confusion regarding the ability of jet fuel fires to soften or melt structural steel.

1. http://www.boulderweekly.com/archiv...coverstory.html

2. CRC Handbook of Chemistry and Physics, 61st edition, pg D-187

3. http://wtc.nist.gov/media/P3Mechani...ysisofSteel.pdf

4. http://www.voicesofsept11.org/archive/911ic/082703.php

5. http://wtc.nist.gov/media/NCSTACWTC...L101904WEB2.pdf (pg 11)

6. http://www.forging.org/FIERF/pdf/ffaaMacSleyne.pdf

Kevin Ryan
Site Manager
Environmental Health Laboratories


It sounds to me like he's simply another concerned American not too much different than myself or anyone else who has a hard time swallowing the official storyline. How you could attempt to discredit him for that is beyond me.

Old Post Dec-12-2005 04:16  United States
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Trancer-X
mutatis mutandis



Registered: Jul 2001
Location: Shambhala
Re: Re: Responce To Occrider

quote:
Originally posted by occrider

http://wtc.nist.gov/pubs/NISTNCSTAR1-3Draft.pdf

http://wtc.nist.gov/pubs/NISTNCSTAR1-3Draft.pdf


The NIST...

http://wtc.nist.gov/pubs/NCSTAR1-5ExecutiveSummary.pdf

http://wtc.nist.gov/progress_report_june04/chapter2.pdf
http://realex.nist.gov:8080/ramgen/...ne_segment_1.rm
http://realex.nist.gov:8080/ramgen/...ne_segment_2.rm





http://www.911research.wtc7.net/essays/nist/index.html

http://www.911review.com/review/coverup/nist.html

Old Post Dec-12-2005 04:16  United States
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Trancer-X
mutatis mutandis



Registered: Jul 2001
Location: Shambhala

Why Did the Trade Center Skyscrapers Collapse?

by Morgan Reynolds


quote:
"It didn’t seem real… There are thousands of these steel beams that just fell like pickup sticks."

~ John Albanese, volunteer firefighter and amateur photographer


quote:
"What struck us – guys like Warren Jennings and myself, who have spent basically all our lives in the scrap business – we’d never seen steel this heavy, this huge, this massive. It was just unbelievable."

~ Michael Henderson (p. 93),
General Manager, Marine Terminals, Metal Management NE


To explain the unanticipated free-fall collapses of the twin towers at the World Trade Center on September 11, 2001, mainstream experts (also see The American Professional Constructor, October 2004, pp. 12–18) offer a three-stage argument: 1) an airplane impact weakened each structure, 2) an intense fire thermally weakened structural components that may have suffered damage to fireproofing materials, causing buckling failures, which, in turn, 3) allowed the upper floors to pancake onto the floors below.

Many will nod their head, OK, that does it and go back to watching the NBA finals or whatever, but I find this theory just about as satisfying as the fantastic conspiracy theory that "19 young Arabs acting at the behest of Islamist extremists headquartered in distant Afghanistan" caused 9/11. The government’s collapse theory is highly vulnerable on its own terms, but its blinkered narrowness and lack of breadth is the paramount defect unshared by its principal scientific rival – controlled demolition. Only professional demolition appears to account for the full range of facts associated with the collapses of WTC 1 (North Tower), WTC 2 (South Tower), and the much-overlooked collapse of the 47-story WTC building 7 at 5:21 pm on that fateful day.

The scientific controversy over the initial structural weakening has two parts: what caused the original tower damage and did that damage "severely" weaken the structures? Photos show a stable, motionless North Tower (WTC 1) after the damage suffered at 8:46 am and the South Tower after its 9:03 am impact. If we focus on the North Tower, close examination of photos reveals arguably "minor" rather than "severe" damage in the North Tower and its perimeter columns.

As many as 45 exterior columns between floors 94 and 98 on the northeast (impact) side of the North Tower were fractured – separated from each other – yet there is no direct evidence of "severe" structural weakening. None of the upper sections of the broken perimeter columns visibly sags or buckles toward its counterpart column below. We can infer this because of the aluminum covers on the columns: each seam uniformly aligns properly across the Tower, forming a horizontal "dashed line" in the façade from beveled end to end. Despite an impact hole, gaps in perimeter columns, and missing parts of floors 95–98 at the opening, the aluminum façade shows no evidence of vertical displacement in the columns, suggestive of little or no wider floor buckling at the perimeter.

The aluminum covers attached to the columns also aligned vertically after impact, that is, separated columns continued to visually remain "plumb" (true vertical), lining up top to bottom around the aperture, implying no perceptible horizontal displacement of the columns. Photographic evidence for the northeast side of the North Tower showed no wider secondary structural impact beyond the opening itself. Of course, there was smoke pouring out of the upper floors.

The fact that perimeter columns were not displaced suggests that the floors did not buckle or sag. Despite missing parts of floors 95–98, photos show no buckling or sag on other floors. If so, that boosts the likelihood that there was little damage to the core. Photos do not document what happened within the interior/core and no one was allowed to inspect and preserve relevant rubble before government authorities – primarily FEMA – had it quickly removed. Eyewitness testimony by those who escaped from inside the North Tower concerning core damage probably is unavailable.

Photos do not allow us to peer far into the interior of the building; in fact the hole is black, with no flames visible. We know that the structural core and its steel was incredibly strong (claimed 600% redundancy) making it unlikely that the core was "severely" damaged at impact. There were 47 core columns connected to each other by steel beams within an overall rectangular core floor area of approximately 87 feet x 137 feet (26.5 m x 41.8 m). Each column had a rectangular cross section of approximately 36" x 14" at the base (90 cm x 36 cm) with steel 4" thick all around (100 mm), tapering to Ľ" (6 mm) thickness at the top. Each floor was also extremely strong (p. 26), a grid of steel, contrary to claims of a lightweight "truss" system.

Those who support the official account like Thomas Eagar (p. 14), professor of materials engineering and engineering systems at MIT, usually argue that the collapse must be explained by the heat from the fires because the loss of loading-bearing capacity from the holes in the Towers was too small. The transfer of load would have been within the capacity of the towers. Since steel used in buildings must be able to bear five times its normal load, Eagar points out, the steel in the towers could have collapsed only if heated to the point where it "lost 80 percent of its strength, " around 1,300oF. Eagar believes that this is what happened, though the fires did not appear to be extensive and intense enough, quickly billowing black smoke and relatively few flames.

While some experts claim that airliner impact severely weakened the entire structural system, evidence is lacking. The perimeters of floors 94–98 did not appear severely weakened, much less the entire structural system. The criminal code requires that crime scene evidence be saved for forensic analysis but FEMA had it destroyed before anyone could seriously investigate it. FEMA was in position to take command because it had arrived the day before the attacks at New York’s Pier 29 to conduct a war game exercise, "Tripod II," quite a coincidence. The authorities apparently considered the rubble quite valuable: New York City officials had every debris truck tracked on GPS and had one truck driver who took an unauthorized 1 ˝ hour lunch fired.

The preliminary NIST Response claims that "the wall section above the impact zone moved downward" (pdf, p. 36) on WTC 1 but offers no evidence. It offers photographic evidence, however, for a "hanging floor slab" on the 82d floor of the South Tower at 9:55 a.m. This looks minor though because there is no sag on adjacent floors and the integrity of the structure looks very much intact. The fire looks weak too, yet the South Tower collapsed only four minutes later. This would be quite a puzzle without a demolition theory.

About a dozen of the fragmented ends of exterior columns in the North Tower hole were bent but the bends faced the "wrong way" because they pointed toward the outside of the Tower. This fact is troublesome for the official theory that a plane crash created the hole and subsequent explosion between floors 94 and 98. The laws of physics imply that a high-speed airplane with fuel-filled wings breaking through thin perimeter columns would deflect the shattered ends of the columns inward, if deflected in any direction, certainly not bend them outward toward the exterior.

A possible response would be that, well, yes, an airliner crash would bend a column inward rather than outward, if bent at all, but the subsequent force of a jet fuel blast would act in the opposite direction: any inward bends caused by plane impact would straighten toward vertical or even reverse the bent steel columns toward the exterior under blast pressure. However, such a proposed steel "reversal theory" (first bend inward by collision, then bend outward by explosion) suffers two major handicaps:

  1. No "inward-bending columns" were observed and it would be unlikely that each and every one would be reversed by subsequent explosion, and
  2. the hypothesis is ad hoc and lacks simplicity, both scientific negatives.


Occam’s razor would suggest that the outward bends in the perimeter columns were caused by explosions from inside the tower rather than bends caused by airliner impact from outside. Also supporting this theory is the fact that the uniformly neat ends of the blown perimeter columns are consistent with the linear shaped charges demolition experts use to slice steel as thick as 10 inches. The hypothesis of linear shaped charges also explains the perfectly formed crosses found in the rubble (crucifix-shaped fragments of core column structures), as well as the rather-neatly shorn steel everywhere.

The engineering establishment’s theory has further difficulties. It is well-known that the hole in the west wing of the Pentagon, less than 18-foot diameter, was too small to accommodate a Boeing 757, but the North Tower’s hole wasn’t big enough for a Boeing 767 either, the alleged widebody airliner used on AA Flight 11 (officially tail number N334AA, FAA-listed as "destroyed"). A Boeing 767 has a wingspan of 155’ 1" (47.6 m) yet the maximum distance across the hole in the North Tower was about 115 feet (35 m), a hole undersized by some 40 feet or 26 percent. "The last few feet at the tips of the wings did not even break through the exterior columns," comments Hufschmid (p. 27). But 20 feet on each wing? I’d call that a substantial difference, not "the last few feet," especially since aircraft impact holes tend to be three times the size of the aircraft, reflecting the fact that fuel-laden airliners flying into buildings send things smashing about in a big way. The small size of the holes in both towers casts doubt on the airliner-impact hypothesis and favors professional demolition again. There were no reports of plane parts, especially wings, shorn off in the collision and bounced to the ground on the northeast side of the tower, to my knowledge, though FEMA reported a few small pieces to the south at Church street (pp. 68–9) and atop WTC-5 to the east of WTC-1.

Adding to the suspicious nature of the small aperture in WTC 1 is that some vertical gaps in the columns on the left side of the northeast hole were so short, probably less than three feet (p. 105) high (p. 27). Not much of a jumbo jet could pass through such an opening, especially since a fuel-laden plane would not minimize its frontal area. The engines are a special problem because each engine is enormous and dense, consisting mainly of tempered steel and weighing 5–6 tons, depending upon model. No engine was recovered in the rubble yet no hydrocarbon fire could possibly vaporize it.

The hole in the North Tower also is suspicious because it did not even have a continuous opening at the perimeter, but instead contained substantial WTC material (p. 27) just left of center (pp. 62, 105). This material appears integral to that area, so it did not move much, suggesting minimal displacement and no clean penetration by a jumbo jet. These huge airliners weigh 82 tons empty and have a maximum takeoff weight of up to 193 tons.

In the case of the South Tower, an engine from UAL Flight 175 (tail number N612UA and FAA-registered as still valid!) has not been recovered despite the fact that the flight trajectory of the video plane implied that the right engine would miss the South Tower. Photos showing minor engine parts on the ground are unconvincing, to put it mildly. Perhaps independent jet engine experts (retired?) can testify to the contrary. Further contradicting the official account, the beveled edge of the southeast side of the south tower was completely intact upon initial impact. The government never produced a jet engine yet claimed it recovered the passport of alleged hijacker Satam al Suqami unharmed by a fiery crash and catastrophic collapse of the North Tower. The government has not produced voice (CVR) or flight data recorders (FDR) in the New York attack either, so-called black boxes, a fact unprecedented in the aviation history of major domestic crashes.

Adding to the problems of the official theory is the fact that photos of the North Tower hole show no evidence of a plane either. There is no recognizable wreckage or plane parts at the immediate crash site. While the issue probably takes us too far afield, the landing wheel assembly that allegedly flew out of the North Tower and was found several streets away could easily have been planted by FEMA or other government agents. I’ve never seen any objective analysis of this wheel assembly though it would be welcome. In fact, the government has failed to produce significant wreckage from any of the four alleged airliners that fateful day. The familiar photo of the Flight 93 crash site in Pennsylvania (The 9/11 Commission Report, Ch. 9) shows no fuselage, engine or anything recognizable as a plane, just a smoking hole in the ground. Photographers reportedly were not allowed near the hole. Neither the FBI nor the National Transportation Safety Board have investigated or produced any report on the alleged airliner crashes.

The WTC 1 and Pentagon holes were not alone in being too small. Photos show that the hole in WTC 2 also was too small to have been caused by the crash of a Boeing 767. In fact, the South Tower hole is substantially smaller than the North Tower hole.

The next question is whether the fires were hot enough to cause the WTC buildings to collapse. In defending the official account and its clones that try to explain the unprecedented collapses of three steel-framed skyscrapers without demolition, heat arguably is more important than structural impact. That’s obviously true for building WTC 7 because there was no alleged airplane impact.

First, no steel-framed skyscraper, even engulfed in flames hour after hour, had ever collapsed before. Suddenly, three stunning collapses occur within a few city blocks on the same day, two allegedly hit by aircraft, the third not. These extraordinary collapses after short-duration minor fires made it all the more important to preserve the evidence, mostly steel girders, to study what had happened. On fire intensity, consider this benchmark: A 1991 FEMA report on Philadelphia’s Meridian Plaza fire said that the fire was so energetic that "[b]eams and girders sagged and twisted," but "[d]espite this extraordinary exposure, the columns continued to support their loads without obvious damage" (quoted by Griffin, p. 15). Such an intense fire with consequent sagging and twisting steel beams bears no resemblance to what we observed at the WTC.

Second, severe structural damage to the WTC towers would have required fires that were not only large but growing throughout the buildings and burning for a considerable period of time. None of these conditions was present. "The lack of flames is an indication that the fires were small, and the dark smoke is an indication that the fires were suffocating," points out Hufschmid (p. 35). Eyewitnesses in the towers, as well as police and firefighters, reported (pp. 199–200) the same thing.

Third, the impact opening was 15 floors lower in the South Tower than in the North Tower, where core columns were thicker, so the South Tower fire had to produce more heat to raise the steel temperatures to soften up (thermally weaken) the steel columns. Yet its fires were considerably smaller and 30 minutes shorter in duration. The Tower collapsed after burning only 56 minutes. A prime candidate to explain why "the wrong tower fell first" is that the small dying fire in the South Tower forced the hand of the mass murderers who decided to trigger demolition earlier than planned in order to sustain the lie that fire caused the collapse. The North Tower stood for another 29 minutes and its core steel was thinner at its upper stories. The 1991 Meridian Plaza fire burned for 19 hours and the fire was so extreme that flames came from dozens of windows on many floors. It did not collapse.

Fourth, implicitly trying to explain away these difficulties, the current NIST investigation, conducted by "an extended investigation team of 236 people," makes "dislodged fireproofing" the key variable to explain the collapses. Supposedly, "the probable collapse sequence for the WTC towers are (sic) based on the behavior of thermally weakened structural components that had extensive damage to fireproofing or gypsum board fire protection induced by the debris field generated by aircraft impact" (p. 111). "Had fireproofing not been dislodged by debris field," this team of government-paid experts claims, "temperature rise of structural components would likely have been insufficient to induce global collapse" (p. 108). Perhaps acknowledging the lack of direct evidence for its conjectures, the NIST admits that "a full collapse of the WTC floor system would not occur even with a number of failed trusses or connections" and it "recognizes inherent uncertainties" (pp. 110 and 112). The NIST will have to boost its creativity to plausibly explain the WTC 7 collapse because it won’t have the benefit of tales of aircraft and debris fields.

Aside from specific defects in the fire collapse theory, a wide variety of facts undermine it:

  • Photos show people walking around in the hole in the North Tower "where 10,000 gallons of jet fuel were supposedly burning. The women (p. 27) seem to (sic) looking down to the ground" (the NIST "Response" pdf, p. 62, also shows a similar photo of the same blond woman with light-colored slacks looking over the edge of the 94th floor).

  • By the time the South Tower was hit, most of the North Tower’s flames had already vanished, burning for only 16 minutes.

  • The fire did not grow over time, probably because it quickly ran out of fuel and was suffocating rather than the sprinkler system dousing the fires.

  • FDNY fire fighters remain under a gag order (Rodriguezvs-1.Bush.pdf, p. 10) to not discuss the explosions they heard, felt and saw. FAA personnel are also under a 9/11 gag order.

  • Even the 9/11 Commission (Kean-Zelikow) Report acknowledges that "none of the [fire] chiefs present believed that a total collapse of either tower was possible" (Ch. 9, p. 302). It shocked everyone that day, amateur and professional alike, although some firefighters realized that so-called secondary explosive devices were a risk.


Griffin (pp. 25–7) succinctly identifies the primary defects in the official account of the WTC collapses, and its sister theories. These problems were entirely ignored by The 9/11 Commission Report (2004), so the government appointees must have found it difficult to account for the following facts:

  1. Fire had never before caused steel-frame buildings to collapse except for the three buildings on 9/11, nor has fire collapsed any steel high rise since 9/11.

  2. The fires, especially in the South Tower and WTC-7, were small.

  3. WTC-7 was unharmed by an airplane and had only minor fires on the seventh and twelfth floors of this 47-story steel building yet it collapsed in less than 10 seconds.

  4. WTC-5 and WTC-6 had raging fires but did not collapse despite much thinner steel beams (pp. 68–9).

  5. In a PBS documentary, Larry Silverstein, the WTC lease-holder, recalled talking to the fire department commander on 9/11 about WTC-7 and said, "…maybe the smartest thing to do is pull it," slang for demolish it.

  6. FEMA, given the uninviting task of explaining the collapse of Building 7 with mention of demolition verboten admitted that the best it could come up with had "only a low probability of occurrence."

  7. It’s difficult if not impossible for hydrocarbon fires like those fed by jet fuel (kerosene) to raise the temperature of steel close to melting.


Professional demolition, by contrast, can explain all of these facts and more. Demolition means placing explosives throughout a building, and detonating them in sequence to weaken "the structure so it collapses or folds in upon itself" (p. 44). In conventional demolitions gravity does most of the work, although it probably did a minority on 9/11, so heavily were the towers honeycombed with explosives.

  1. Each WTC building collapse occurred at virtually free-fall speed (approximately 10 seconds or less).

  2. Each building collapsed, for the most part, into its own footprint.

  3. Virtually all the concrete (an estimated 100,000 tons in each tower) on every floor was pulverized into a very fine dust, a phenomenon that requires enormous energy and could not be caused by gravity alone ("…workers can’t even find concrete. ‘It’s all dust,’ [the official] said").

  4. Dust exploded horizontally for a couple hundred feet, as did debris, at the beginning of each tower’s collapse.

  5. Collapses were total, leaving none of the massive core columns sticking up hundreds of feet into the air.

  6. Salvage experts were amazed at how small the debris stacks were.

  7. The steel beams and columns came down in sections under 30 feet long and had no signs of "softening"; there was little left but shorn sections of steel and a few bits of concrete.

  8. Photos and videos of the collapses all show "demolition waves," meaning "confluent rows of small explosions" along floors (blast sequences).

  9. According to many witnesses, explosions occurred within the buildings.

  10. Each collapse had detectable seismic vibrations suggestive of underground explosions, similar to the 2.3 earthquake magnitude from a demolition like the Seattle Kingdome (p. 108).

  11. Each collapse produced molten steel identical to that generated by explosives, resulting in "hot spots" that persisted for months (the two hottest spots at WTC-2 and WTC-7 were approximately 1,350o F five days after being continuously flooded with water, a temperature high enough to melt aluminum (p. 70).


Controlled demolition would have required unimpeded access to the WTC, access to explosives, avoiding detection, and the expertise to orchestrate the deadly destruction from a nearby secure location. Such access before 9/11 likely depended on complicity by one or more WTC security companies. These companies focus on "access control" and as security specialist Wayne Black says, "When you have a security contract, you know the inner workings of everything." Stratesec, a now-defunct company that had security contracts at the World Trade Center and Dulles International Airport, should be investigated, among others, because of the strange coincidence that President Bush’s brother, Marvin P. Bush, and his cousin, Wirt D. Walker III, were principals in the company, with Walker acting as CEO from 1999 until January 2002 and Marvin reportedly in New York on 9/11. At least one report claims that a "power down" condition prevailed on September 8–9 (pdf, p. 45) at WTC to complete a "cabling upgrade," presenting an opportunity to plant explosives with low risk of detection.

A related point is that demolition companies go to considerable expense to wire steel-framed skyscrapers with explosives to produce safe implosions, and they would love to do it more cheaply by simply setting two small fires like those that (allegedly) caved in building 7. Apparently, the terrorist-inventors have kept this new technology secret.

Why would the killers destroy WTC-7, especially since a collapse would arouse suspicion in some quarters? A logical if unproven theory is that the perpetrators used Mayor Giuliani’s sealed OEM "bunker" on the 23d story of WTC-7 to conduct the twin tower implosions and then destroyed the building and evidence to cover up their crimes, just as a murderer might set his victim’s dwelling ablaze to cover up the crime (one in four fires is arson). Giuliani’s "undisclosed secret location" was perfect because it had been evacuated by 9:45 a.m. on 9/11, it enabled unmolested work, provided a ringside seat, was bullet- and bomb-resistant, had its own secure air and water supply, and could withstand winds of 160 mph, necessary protection from the wind blasts generated by collapsing skyscrapers.

There is special import in the fact of free-fall collapse (item one in the list immediately above), if only because everyone agrees that the towers fell at free-fall speed. This makes pancake collapse with one floor progressively falling onto the floor below an unattractive explanation. Progressive pancaking cannot happen at free-fall speed ("g" or 9.8 m/s2). Free-fall would require "pulling" or removing obstacles below before they could impede (slow) the acceleration of falling objects from above. Sequenced explosions, on the other hand, explain why the lower floors did not interfere with the progress of the falling objects above. The pancake theory fails this test.

If we put the murder of 2,749 innocent victims momentarily aside, the only unusual technical feature of the collapses of the twin towers was that the explosions began at the top, immediately followed by explosions from below. WTC-7, by contrast, was entirely conventional, imploding from bottom up.

It is hard to exaggerate the importance of a scientific debate over the cause(s) of the collapse of the twin towers and building 7. If the official wisdom on the collapses is wrong, as I believe it is, then policy based on such erroneous engineering analysis is not likely prove to be sound. Revised engineering and construction practices, for example, based on the belief that the twin towers collapsed through airplane damage and subsequent fires is premature, to say the least.

More importantly, momentous political and social consequences would follow if impartial observers concluded that professionals imploded the WTC. If demolition destroyed three steel skyscrapers at the World Trade Center on 9/11, then the case for an "inside job" and a government attack on America would be compelling. Meanwhile, the job of scientists, engineers and impartial researchers everywhere is to get the scientific and engineering analysis of 9/11 right, "though heaven should fall." Unfortunately, getting it right in today’s "security state" demands daring because explosives and structural experts have been intimidated in their analyses of the collapses of 9/11.

June 9, 2005

Morgan Reynolds, Ph.D., is professor emeritus at Texas A&M University and former director of the Criminal Justice Center at the National Center for Policy Analysis headquartered in Dallas, TX. He served as chief economist for the US Department of Labor during 2001–2, George W. Bush's first term.




http://www.lewrockwell.com/reynolds/reynolds12.html

Old Post Dec-12-2005 06:31  United States
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Trancer-X
mutatis mutandis



Registered: Jul 2001
Location: Shambhala

What's sad is that the NIST didn't even bother to investigate whether or not bombs or other high-explosives had been detonated inside the buildings. They only focused on the fires as being the culprit. What a joke!



quote:
The NIST probe set to get under way Wednesday is designed to be broader and more detailed than a study conducted by the American Society of Civil Engineers and funded by the Federal Emergency Management Agency. That study, concluded in May, determined the 110-story twin towers could have survived the impact of the hijacked 767s but fell victim to the ensuing fire that caused the buildings' steel columns to soften and buckle.

NIST Director Arden Bement has said the relationship between fire and structural collapses will be a major focus of the probe and the investigation ``could lead to major changes in both U.S. building and fire codes and in engineering practice.''

Fluffy fireproofing sprayed onto the trade center's steel beams was jarred loose by when the jetliners slammed into the trade center, the FEMA study found. NIST investigators will look at ways to keep the fireproofing intact.

Investigators are also interested in 7 World Trade Center, which is believed to have sustained little structural damage. It collapsed due to fire alone, the first fireproofed steel structure to do so.

excerpt taken from:

http://www.firehouse.com/news/2002/8/21_APwtc.html



quote:
From: News and Views | City Beat |
Friday, January 04, 2002
Firefighter Mag
Raps 9/11 Probe
By JOE CALDERONE
Daily News Chief of Investigations

A respected firefighting trade magazine with ties to the city Fire Department is calling for a "full-throttle, fully resourced" investigation into the collapse of the World Trade Center. A signed editorial in the January issue of Fire Engineering magazine says the current investigation is "a half-baked farce." The piece by Bill Manning, editor of the 125-year-old monthly that frequently publishes technical studies of major fires, also says the steel from the site should be preserved so investigators can examine what caused the collapse.

"Did they throw away the locked doors from the Triangle Shirtwaist fire? Did they throw away the gas can used at the Happy Land social club fire? ... That's what they're doing at the World Trade Center," the editorial says. "The destruction and removal of evidence must stop immediately."

Fire Engineering counted FDNY Deputy Chief Raymond Downey, the department's chief structural expert, among its senior advisers. Downey was killed in the Sept. 11 attack.

John Jay College's fire engineering expert, Prof. Glenn Corbett, serves as the magazine's technical editor.

A group of engineers from the American Society of Civil Engineers, with backing from the Federal Emergency Management Agency, has been studying some aspects of the collapse. But Manning and others say that probe has not looked at all aspects of the disaster and has had limited access to documents and other evidence.


http://www.nydailynews.com/2002-01-...asp?last6days=1



quote:
"Burning Questions...Need Answers": FE's Bill Manning Calls for Comprehensive Investigation of WTC Collapse

Fair Lawn, NJ, January 4, 2002-Bill Manning, Fire Engineering's editor in chief, is summoning members of the fire service to "A Call to Action." In his January 2002 Editor's Opinion, "$elling Out the Investigation" (below), he warns that unless there is a full-blown investigation by an independent panel established solely for that purpose, "the World Trade Center fire and collapse will amount to paper- and computer-generated hypotheticals." Manning explained: "Clearly, there are burning questions that need answers .... The lessons about the buildings' design and behavior in this extraordinary event must be learned and applied in the real world."

In an interview with the New York Daily News today, Manning reiterated his call for a "full-throttle, fully resourced" investigation into the collapse of the World Trade Center. He is asking members of the fire service to read "WTC 'Investigation'? A Call to Action" in the January 2002 issue of Fire Engineering and at fireengineering.com and to contact their representatives in Congress and officials in Washington to ask that a blue ribbon panel be convened to thoroughly investigate the WTC collapse.

Among those also calling for the investigation are Sally Regenhard, the mother of Christian Regenhard, the Fire Department of New York (FDNY) probationary firefighter killed in the World Trade Center (WTC) attack, and founder of the Campaign for Skyscraper Safety; Give Your Voice, a civilian relatives' group headed by Michael Cartier, who lost his brother in the collapse; prominent structural engineers and fire-safety experts, and New York State Senators Charles Schumer and Senator Hillary Rodham Clinton.

----------------------------------------------------------

$elling Out the Investigation

By Bill Manning

Did they throw away the locked doors from the Triangle Shirtwaist Fire? Did they throw away the gas can used at the Happyland Social Club Fire? Did they cast aside the pressure-regulating valves at the Meridian Plaza Fire? Of course not. But essentially, that's what they're doing at the World Trade Center.

For more than three months, structural steel from the World Trade Center has been and continues to be cut up and sold for scrap. Crucial evidence that could answer many questions about high-rise building design practices and performance under fire conditions is on the slow boat to China, perhaps never to be seen again in America until you buy your next car.

Such destruction of evidence shows the astounding ignorance of government officials to the value of a thorough, scientific investigation of the largest fire-induced collapse in world history. I have combed through our national standard for fire investigation, NFPA 921, but nowhere in it does one find an exemption allowing the destruction of evidence for buildings over 10 stories tall.

Hoping beyond hope, I have called experts to ask if the towers were the only high-rise buildings in America of lightweight, center-core construction. No such luck. I made other calls asking if these were the only buildings in America with light-density, sprayed-on fireproofing. Again, no luck-they were two of thousands that fit the description.

Comprehensive disaster investigations mean increased safety. They mean positive change. NASA knows it. The NTSB knows it. Does FEMA know it?

No. Fire Engineering has good reason to believe that the "official investigation" blessed by FEMA and run by the American Society of Civil Engineers is a half-baked farce that may already have been commandeered by political forces whose primary interests, to put it mildly, lie far afield of full disclosure. Except for the marginal benefit obtained from a three-day, visual walk-through of evidence sites conducted by ASCE investigation committee members- described by one close source as a "tourist trip"-no one's checking the evidence for anything.

Maybe we should live and work in planes. That way, if disaster strikes, we will at least be sure that a thorough investigation will help find ways to increase safety for our survivors.

As things now stand and if they continue in such fashion, the investigation into the World Trade Center fire and collapse will amount to paper- and computer-generated hypotheticals.

However, respected members of the fire protection engineering community are beginning to raise red flags, and a resonating theory has emerged: The structural damage from the planes and the explosive ignition of jet fuel in themselves were not enough to bring down the towers. Rather, theory has it, the subsequent contents fires attacking the questionably fireproofed lightweight trusses and load-bearing columns directly caused the collapses in an alarmingly short time. Of course, in light of there being no real evidence thus far produced, this could remain just unexplored theory.

The frequency of published and unpublished reports raising questions about the steel fireproofing and other fire protection elements in the buildings, as well as their design and construction, is on the rise. The builders and owners of the World Trade Center property, the Port Authority of New York-New Jersey, a governmental agency that operates in an accountability vacuum beyond the reach of local fire and building codes, has denied charges that the buildings' fire protection or construction components were substandard but has refused to cooperate with requests for documentation supporting its contentions.

Some citizens are taking to the streets to protest the investigation sellout. Sally Regenhard, for one, wants to know why and how the building fell as it did upon her unfortunate son Christian, an FDNY probationary firefighter. And so do we.

Clearly, there are burning questions that need answers. Based on the incident's magnitude alone, a full-throttle, fully resourced, forensic investigation is imperative. More important, from a moral standpoint, for the safety of present and future generations who live and work in tall buildings-and for firefighters, always first in and last out-the lessons about the buildings' design and behavior in this extraordinary event must be learned and applied in the real world.

To treat the September 11 incident any differently would be the height of stupidity and ignorance.

The destruction and removal of evidence must stop immediately.

The federal government must scrap the current setup and commission a fully resourced blue ribbon panel to conduct a clean and thorough investigation of the fire and collapse, leaving no stones unturned.

Firefighters, this is your call to action. Visit WTC "Investigation"?: A Call to Action, then contact your representatives in Congress and officials in Washington and help us correct this problem immediately.

http://fe.pennnet.com/Articles/Arti...TICLE_ID=131225

Old Post Dec-12-2005 06:59  United States
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Trancer-X
mutatis mutandis



Registered: Jul 2001
Location: Shambhala

I'm really enjoying this George Washington Blog, by the way. It's definitely good to know that there's more than just a handful of people out there who aren't mindlessly complacent, spineless fools!

Sorry, but I just had to get that off my chest.

Old Post Dec-12-2005 07:09  United States
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occrider
Traveladdict



Registered: Oct 2000
Location: New York
Re: Re: Re: Responce To Occrider

quote:
Originally posted by Trancer-X
Who ever said anything to the contrary?

Here's the original letter with the original footnotes attached, with emphasis placed by me:



It sounds to me like he's simply another concerned American not too much different than myself or anyone else who has a hard time swallowing the official storyline. How you could attempt to discredit him for that is beyond me.


Actually you have reposted the exact information that stevieboy32808 provided in his post. But in response to your response, numerous websites have insinuated the contrary. stevieboy32808's post insinuated to the contrary claiming that he in fact represents something that he doesn't factually represent. I'm simply attempting to clarify the situation. I don't like ad-hominems that attack a person's character while failing to attack the person's arguments. That is why I have nothing but distaste for arguments that critique Popular Mechanics because the editor is Michael Chertoff's brother/cousin or whatever. So which is it, do ad-hominems work against Popular Mechanics while failing with Ryan or are they both ancillary arguments to the meat of the matter? That is why I didn't stop with looking at the background of Ryan. He was apparentely making claims as a subject matter expert and thus the start of my investigation was to determine whether he was in fact a subject matter expert or not. Once I found out he was not, I examined his argument in greater detail to see whether there were flaws. If you reference my arguments I directly addressed his claims because that's the meat of the issue.

I never attempted to discredit him for raising questions. I simply made it clear to everyone that everything he said should be subject to the EXACT same scrutiny and skepticism as any other proposed theory that provides little verification ... because he doesn't deserve the status of a subject matter expert. Quite the contrary I realised the weaknesses of ad-hominem arguments and thus I attempted to discredit his specific arguments which I then proceeded to do.

Now I know you have sourced a bunch of links and papers in response to my arguments, but let's be frank ... they run the gammot on a million issues. Like I told stevieboy32808, I really don't have time to read a website that raises a million theories. I'm doing things one at a time presented by someone in their own words. This is why I originally abandoned 9/11 discussions. I would make a good case and the person i was arguing with never responded ... never admitted the weaknesses of their arguments or bolstered their case. Then someone esle would come along and post another website that I would try to refute ... and of course they would never try to argue beyond what their website told them to copy and paste. To be frank I'm sick of it. I've resolved to spend as much time as my opponent is willing to sepnd on an issue to a resonable degree. This requires specificity and arguments put in your own words with reference quotes as opposed to quoting someone else's entire arguments.

So in conclusion I'm perfectly happy to debate you, but unless you're addressing a really specific argument I have raised (I think that I have addressed every specific argument that stevieboy32808 raised in quote/response, quote/response format) I really don't have the time to really argue with 10 different people on 10 different issues. I'm doing as much as I can ...


(the following argument is not addressed to you Trancer-X, but rather to everyone who think it applies to)
It's not as if I've been completely oblivious to conspiratory arguemnts that have deviated from the official explanation. It's the fact that SO MANY conspiracy arguments have been proven to be blatant falsities that I can't help but be distrustful. Everyone has an agenda. If you think that that only applies to government than you're the worst of the naieve fools. You're not just "sheep", you're hypocritical "sheep" because you fail to take that "keen" eye and apply to yourselves. MOst of the time, people believe what they want to believe. The true intellectuals take in all the facts and then believe whatever the facts tell them. Let me tell you ... if ALL the facts coincide with what you believe in than you're doing something wrong.


___________________
Retro ...

Last edited by occrider on Dec-12-2005 at 08:07

Old Post Dec-12-2005 07:44  United States
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