quote:

Originally posted by juzfugen Most dont pay state and federal income tax because they get paid under the table, you need a SS# to pay taxes, hmm how does an illegal get a SS# you ask, well I'll tell you the steal it. <-- link read it. This is one of the many reason the US government isnt acting on this problem, they are making a fortune off of it. Property taxes?? Sure like they own homes, I work in the mortgage industry and sorry its just about impossible for an illegal to get a home loan here in the states. So that leaves sales tax, vehicle tax?? whatever that is Texas doesnt have it and toll roads ( not too many of those around here either..) Ok so they pay sales tax yet receive free education for their children even though most public schools are over crowded with the children legal of property tax paying Americans, get free medical help which cost my county alone $330 million last year, or they skip the bill. Do you know who pays for that unpaid medical bill? You , me all of us, we pay for it in higher medial bills which turn raise insurance rates.

Well to be honest, it's simply fallacious to conclude that "most" illegal immigrants aren't paying taxes. It's not like social security isn't a significant tax to begin with particularly since federal and state taxes would be rather miniscule when you look at the income group most illegal immigrants are bracketed in.

Furhtermore the IRS has made some headway to legitimize the tax contributions of illegal immigrants by seperating themselves from INS and allowing illegal immigrants to legitimately pay taxes without stealing SSNs:

quote:

Tax time is for everyone, including illegal immigrants by Bianca Vazquez Toness, Minnesota Public Radio April 10, 2005 The April 15 tax deadline to file taxes causes most Americans stress and anguish. But for the millions of people living and working illegally in the United States, filing taxes can be an opportunity to prove their economic contribution and document their residence here. The IRS allows them to file using a special number. But some immigration critics don't like the idea of a federal agency accommodating illegal immigrants. St. Paul, Minn. — Aniceto Flores cleans for a living. That means spending a lot of time in his truck, navigating the suburbs around the Twin Cities. He hauls buckets, rags, and other supplies in the back. He consults a thick red book of maps, but he still gets lost. He gets frustrated by the cul-de-sacs and meandering roads of the newer subdivisions. Last fall he started cleaning houses during the day. It's going so well that he bought a new SUV. He still works a second job for a janitorial service, cleaning offices at night. He says that all of the other employees there are just like him. They're here illegally. "President Bush and other politicians say that the U.S. should give work to illegals that Americans or gringos don't want to do," he says. "This is a job that no one wants to do." Aniceto dreams of someday cleaning hundreds of houses, hiring his own staff, buying a big house, and making lots of money. He's lived in the states for five years, but he's never filed taxes. He says he needs to start filing to get right with the Internal Revenue Service and immigration authorities if he wants to build a future here. "U.S. law says that illegals have no business being here," he says. "The tax laws say it doesn't matter that you're illegal -- you have to pay. It's not fair is it. If I'm going to be here I'm going to pay and follow the rules, so I say they should give me a chance to work." Aniceto used a fake Social Security number when he got his job with the janitorial service. Illegal immigrants cannot legally get a Social Security number. They either buy one on the black market, use someone else's, or -- in Aniceto's case -- make one up. Some employers don't verify that the Social Security number is real or belongs to their employee. Now that Aniceto is self-employed and wants to report his cash income, he needs a way to file his taxes. The janitorial service Aniceto works for withholds taxes from his paycheck. But Aniceto does not declare income from his day job. Nine years ago, the IRS created the Individual Tax Identification Number. The idea then was to collect taxes from rich foreigners with investments in the United States. The IRS soon realized it could also use the number to tap into the untaxed cash economy where many illegal immigrants work. Aniceto fears being deported. You might think that he would fear filing his taxes and calling attention to himself. But he says he knows that revenue and immigration authorities in the United States don't talk to each other. He knows that as long as he keeps working and stays out of trouble, he'll be safe. It's the IRS's tradition of privacy that allows people like Aniceto to join in the American ritual of filing taxes and -- at the same time -- stay under the radar of immigration authorities. The state of Minnesota accepts the special filing numbers to process state income taxes, and expects illegal immigrants like Aniceto to use it. State law requires illegal immigrants to file just like everyone else if they have enough income. The state typically doesn't count how many people file their taxes using these numbers. One study released last year showed that nearly 8,000 Minnesota residents used the numbers. "It's not in our bailiwick to determine whether they're residents or not, or whether they've gone through all of the work that it takes to be a citizen," Wald says. "We know none of that. As far as we're concerned they worked here. They have something that proves they worked here. Then they had taxable income." In fact, revenue authorities have kept illegal immigrants' taxes so private that immigration officials don't even know they can file them. When contacted by Minnesota Public Radio, a spokesman for U.S. Citizenship and Immigration Services denied that illegal immigrants could even get a tax-filing number. But, after checking the IRS Web site, he conceded that the IRS must have changed its policy. He claims it was a recent change. However, illegal immigrants have been filing their taxes with the special filing number for nearly a decade. The immigration official said that he didn't see a contradiction between his agency's mission and IRS practice. He said each agency is just doing its job. Still, policy analyst Marti Dinerstein says that immigration and revenue authorities should get on the same page when it comes to illegal immigrants. She says that people like Aniceto are probably harmless and just want to work. But the fact that the IRS has made it easy for him to file his taxes "institutionalizes" illegal immigration. "The IRS has created an absurd situation, where it is working against the goals of the Social Security Administration and the Department of Homeland Security," Dinerstein says. "It likes the tax revenue. But by refusing to cooperate with the Social Security Administration and Department of Homeland Security by sharing knowledge, it is really aiding and abetting illegal immigration in the United States." Last month, Aniceto Flores joined about a dozen other people looking for answers at a tax workshop. Two women who led the workshop spoke about their experiences filing taxes as illegal immigrants. They told the audience they should file their taxes. They claimed that as long as they're honest, filing will help them more than it will hurt them. "It's important to pay taxes because we need to think of the future," Adriana Ramirez said. "The only way to show that we've been here, that we're doing things right, is to pay taxes. It's the only way." Aniceto still has doubts. He says he wants to do the right thing, but the rules are fuzzy and that worries him. Like most Americans, he's afraid of the IRS and getting audited. But for him, if he files his taxes and makes a mistake, he could draw the attention of authorities and could get thrown out of the country. http://news.minnesota.publicradio.o...onessb_illegal/

Perhaps the argument you should stick with is that despite the fact that illegal immigrants do pay a significant amount in taxes .... enough that some consider its contribution as buoying social security:

http://deseretnews.com/dn/view/0,1249,600123790,00.html

That they are drawing more from subsidies than they are contributing in taxes:

quote:

Illegal Immigrants' Cost to Government Studied By Mary Fitzgerald Washington Post Staff Writer Thursday, August 26, 2004; Page A21 A report that found that illegal immigrants in the United States cost the federal government more than $10 billion a year -- a sum it estimated would almost triple if they were given amnesty -- has drawn criticism from immigration advocacy groups. For its report, the Center for Immigration Studies, a Washington-based group that advocates tougher immigration policies, used Census Bureau figures to compare the revenue that illegal immigrants contribute through taxes with the cost of government services they use. "Households headed by illegal aliens imposed more than $26.3 billion in costs on the federal government in 2002 and paid only $16 billion in taxes, creating a net fiscal deficit of $10.4 billion, or $2,700 per illegal household," said Steven A. Camarota, author of the study. The costs outlined in the report include government services such as Medicaid, medical treatment for the uninsured, food assistance programs, the federal prison and court systems, and federal aid to schools. The study acknowledged that, on average, the costs that illegal-immigrant households bear on the federal government are less than half that of other households, and that many of those costs relate to their U.S.-born children. It also pointed out that tax payments by illegal-immigrant households constitute one-fourth those of other households because of low-income jobs. "With nearly two-thirds of illegal aliens lacking a high school degree, the primary reason they create a fiscal deficit is their low education levels and resulting low incomes and tax payments, not their legal status or heavy use of most social services," Camarota said. The report estimates that granting legal status to illegal immigrants would dramatically increase their cost, causing the net fiscal deficit to rise to nearly $29 billion because, the author argues, unskilled immigrants would have access to more government services while continuing to make modest tax payments. Camarota concluded in his report that the fiscal impact could be lessened only by stringently enforcing immigration laws, a view that drew criticism from some immigration specialists and advocacy groups that also accused him of not coming up with constructive recommendations. "Implied within this study's findings is the sense that if these people could suddenly be made to disappear, the federal government would be $10 billion to the plus, and that is almost certainly not true once you look at the numbers," Jeffrey S. Passel, a demographer at the Urban Institute, said in an interview. "Should you charge up to undocumented aliens the cost of small-business loans that they don't get or the cost of civil litigation, among other things? This report does that," he said. Frank Sharry, director of the National Immigration Forum, an immigrant advocacy group, took issue with the report's treatment of illegal immigrants' U.S.-born children, who are American citizens. "The costs of the children of immigrants are accounted for [in the report], but not their contributions to the economy as workers and taxpayers," he said in a written statement, adding that the report's conclusions were not helpful to the debate on immigration reform. "There is a growing consensus in both political parties that our immigration system needs to be comprehensively reformed," Sharry said. "Our current system of haphazard laws, spotty enforcement, border chaos and unfair restrictions needs to be replaced by a regulatory regime that makes immigration safe, legal and orderly." http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dy...-2004Aug25.html

Of course if you wish to stand by the tenets of the report from the Center for Immigration Studies you will have to address the very real counterargument that Frank Sharry, and numerous economists, make about the net contribution from illegal immigrants towards the aggregate state of the economy. Particularly with issues such as maximizing full output, efficient labor markets, and contributions towards wage growth:

http://www.econ.ucdavis.edu/faculty...aggregate_6.pdf

*Edited slightly due to improved reading comprehension

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Last edited by occrider on Apr-18-2006 at 06:34

In the Los Angeles area a radio station is try to protest illegal imigration by having a car wash, but have to find a new venue since the old one was threatened with violence and rioting. Granted the radio station does not support amnesty, but even so is it not messed up that they are not able to prostest in their OWN country without threats?

quote:

Originally posted by juzfugen Most dont pay state and federal income tax because they get paid under the table, you need a SS# to pay taxes, hmm how does an illegal get a SS# you ask, well I'll tell you the steal it. <-- link read it. This is one of the many reason the US government isnt acting on this problem, they are making a fortune off of it. Property taxes?? Sure like they own homes, I work in the mortgage industry and sorry its just about impossible for an illegal to get a home loan here in the states. So that leaves sales tax, vehicle tax?? whatever that is Texas doesnt have it and toll roads ( not too many of those around here either..) Ok so they pay sales tax yet receive free education for their children even though most public schools are over crowded with the children legal of property tax paying Americans, get free medical help which cost my county alone $330 million last year, or they skip the bill. Do you know who pays for that unpaid medical bill? You , me all of us, we pay for it in higher medial bills which turn raise insurance rates.

did i claim that all or even most illegals pay taxes? i think not. i refuted the other guy's claim that they pay no taxes.


EDIT
oh, and one more thing, that article you linked is bunch of crap or yellow journalism, if you wish:

"the government is actually encouraging identity theft?" wtf. "Many victims are real" are there fake victims? I pray that Bob Sulliven gets cancer in his testicles.

quote:

Hidden cost of illegal immigration: ID theft Posted: Friday, March 31 at 06:00 am CT by Bob Sullivan In the noisy immigration debate raging in Washington, there is one voice NOT being heard. The voice of identity theft victims. Behind many of the nation’s millions of undocumented workers are someone else's documents. To get a job, illegal immigrants need a Social Security number, and they often borrow one. As victim Melody Millet is fond of saying, U.S. citizens are being forced to share their identities with undocumented immigrants to give corporate America a steady supply of cheap labor. Thousands, perhaps hundreds of thousands of Americans are right now sharing their identities with immigrants and don't know it. It is the dirty little secret of the immigration issue: By not dealing directly with the undocumented worker situation, the U.S government is actually encouraging identity theft. In fact, one can argue that the origins of the identity theft epidemic can be traced to the immigration issue. The scope of this problem is vast. Every year, nearly 9 million people pay their taxes using the wrong Social Security number. The name used on W-2 tax forms used by employers doesn't match the name on file with the Social Security Administration. There can be many reasons why -- a data entry typo by a human resources department, a woman changes her name after marriage and forgets to report it, or a man uses someone else's SSN to get a job. Social Security calls this a "no-match" situation. When this happens, the Social Security Administration collects the money, but the wage credits go into limbo. They don't end up on anyone's annual Social Security statement, they end up in something called the Earnings Suspense File. Since 1984, when the Social Security card employment verification requirement kicked in, nearly $500 billion in wages has ended up in that file. Who are all these people paying their taxes using the wrong SSN? Neither Social Security nor the IRS has ever studied this issue in great detail. But there are clear indications that many -- if not most -- of the 9 million mismatches are immigrants using the wrong SSN. One study by Social Security indicates no-match payments come most frequently from agricultural and restaurant industries, for example. Not every mismatched SSN belongs to a real living person, and in fact, it appears many are chosen at random. Some belong to the deceased; others are entirely fictitious. One study showed thousands of entries using obvious fakes, such as 123-45-6789 or 999-99-9999. Many victims are very real But many victims are very real. Recently, officials in Utah matched a database of children receiving welfare benefits with a database of workers paying state taxes and found 1,800 child victims. It’s impossible to know how many of the impostors were undocumented workers, but Utah Assistant Attorney General Rich Hamp says that behind most cases the agency has prosecuted so far, he’s found an immigrant using someone else’s papers. Victims often don't have any idea they’re sharing their identity with an immigrant, because there's no way to find out. Social Security won't tell you if someone else is using your SSN. The extra earnings don't end up on your annual Social Security statement, because they are designated to the Earnings Suspense File instead. Ditto for the Internal Revenue Service. The misuse isn't revealed in personal credit reports, either. If somebody uses your number to get a credit card or car loan, the nation's credit bureaus create a new credit file instead of alerting you to the misuse. Victims only find out when something goes wrong -- when there are unpaid taxes or unpaid bills, debt collectors often track down the original SSN holder. But there are sometimes hints along the way. SSN-only ID theft victim Margaret Harrison was once denied unemployment because records showed she had a job. Harrison was in West Virginia -- her Social Security number was working on a farm in Washington state. She couldn't prove her problem until recently, however, when she received a debit card with her impostor's picture on it. The immigration issue is an incredibly complex mine field of competing emotional issues. There are sloganeering and extremism on both sides. There will be no kicking out every undocumented worker; and there will be no letting everyone in right away. People who insist on either are naive, foolish or both. There will be hard decisions and heartbreaks. This column does not suggest there is a simple answer. And it also does not blame the immigrants, who are simply following the real-life rules they’ve been given. Want a job? Want to feed your family, want a better life for your kids? Just get a nine-digit number. The message has been clear from our government and our corporations for 20 years -- no one cares whose nine-digit number you use. Plenty of blame to go around The blame lies on us all for not dealing with the situation directly, and instead encouraging under-the-table activity. There are millions of victims on all sides -- including the innocent bystanders who must share their Social Security numbers. This is what happens when an extra-legal system is in place. Today, there are no rules, which clearly encourages this sharing of Social Security numbers. It encourages the cottage industry that is document forgery. And ultimately, it encourages identity theft. While consumers cannot learn the secret life of their Social Security numbers, several groups know all about it. The nation’s credit bureaus, for example, can sort their data by number instead of name. Lenders routinely buy this information when assessing a consumer's credit risk. Every time MSNBC.com covers this issue, workers at car dealers and banks write in to say they’ve seen countless examples of consumers who apply for accounts and have multiple names connected to their Social Security numbers. Privacy rules prevent them from warning the consumers. And of course, any agency that collects taxes, such as Social Security or the IRS, has this information. It would certainly be possible for any of these groups to inform those who are sharing SSNs, but a serious attempt has never been made. Why? I suspect that doing so would personalize the immigration debate and might very well lead to a true flash point for the issue. Three years ago, Social Security did the next-best thing, sending letters to some employers with large lists of people paying taxes using the wrong SSN. As workers scattered, seeing the letters as tantamount to a deportation notice, immigration rights groups protested. The letters were immediately withdrawn. And here we sit. One thing activists on many sides of this issue seem to agree on –- it’s time to bring undocumented workers out of the shadows. That would be wise, as it would also bring countless identity theft victims out of the shadows. But until that happens, the IRS, the SSA and the nation’s credit bureaus need to develop a system that allows the rightful holder of a Social Security number to know if it has a secret life.

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Last edited by Spacey Orange on Apr-18-2006 at 20:00

quote:

Originally posted by Lepanto this is our continent...what the fuck? i say round them all up, gag them and bag them and ship them back to rot in the desert. what the fuck is this shit? mexicans are the lowlifes of the latin american world.

WHITE POWAH!

quote:

"We are not trying to hurt your country," said Jorge Macias, a high school sophomore who said he is a U.S. citizen. "It is big enough for everyone." http://www.cnn.com/2006/EDUCATION/0...s.ap/index.html

i am so sick of this shit. i dont get these people, i cant believe they are serious! how can someone seriously consider agruing for illegal immigrants to stay illegal immigrants as if not doing anything about them was an option. no, scratch that, people at protests like this dont want the US to look the other way, they want the US to actually cator to the illegals. they are fucking retarded! get the fuck out of my country

How about instead of talking about the illegal immigrant issue the USA addresses and creates a thoughtfull (and realistic) policy on US's (legal) immigration plan. New ideas need to be looked at and implemented into these new policies.

The reality is the USA needs to accept more and be welcoming to more foreigners (especially the highly educated). At the same time it needs to protect its borders to prevent smuggling and reduce illicit activities. In addition the USA needs an acceptable policy to allow menail laborers into the nation.

Common sense policies need to be revamped and created to implement a real American immigration policy, only once the immigration policy is "fixed" will a real solution present itself with what to do with the illegals.

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quote:

Originally posted by josh4 i am so sick of this shit. i dont get these people, i cant believe they are serious! how can someone seriously consider agruing for illegal immigrants to stay illegal immigrants as if not doing anything about them was an option. no, scratch that, people at protests like this dont want the US to look the other way, they want the US to actually cator to the illegals. they are fucking retarded! get the fuck out of my country

you quoted a high school sophmore. as if anyone's opinon in that age groups matters.

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quote:

Originally posted by Spacey Orange you quoted a high school sophmore. as if anyone's opinon in that age groups matters.

Just my 2 cents:

I know a couple of illegal immigrants but they were illegally brought here by their parents(who I blame) I dont like the whole idea of illegals in the US and continuing to come. The idea that americans wont do the jobs they do is pretty dumb but understandable because of the minimun wage which is quite low in surrounding areas of major cities.

I also think that there should be a wall or some sort of thing to deter these people. I could be that a billion people around the world want to come to the USA. Why should the mexicans and illegals from South America get the priority. The immigration standards we have in the US need a overhaul. There should be tighter rules on visas (i know first hand).

My family came to the US legally had to adjust to its culture and learn the language something that most of these people dont do.

You cant deport all these people because that would take a hit on everything probably start riots and also just be way too expensive. I really dont know the solution to the problem of the people already here but for those who keep illegally immigrating that should be curbed immediatly.