quote:

Originally posted by Derivative Then dont fucking buy it if its on a digital label. You can hear the soundclip right? If it truly sucks ass that 'label' will go under. If they break even that shows there is some interest there, even if the people showing that interest arent anything like you. Do not begrudge anyone their own successes. I wouldnt do it to any of you.

Yes, I can hear the soundclip. Many of them. Tons and tons and tons of soundclips. Shit and generic soundclips. They just keep coming. How the hell do I find those few ones that are actually good from all that toss?

quote:

HAHAHA. The cost of all your bloody equipment.

Like these kids ever paid a dime from their copy of FL Studio...

___________________
Latest releases:
Endless Cycles [Capital Heaven]
The Charlatan [Morphosis]

Its amazing how cynical some of you can be. I paid for all my gear all my software and I know several others that have too. Dont tar us all with the same brush

Then theres the hardware. My PC, Audio interface, Virus B, BM5a monitors, acoustic treatment total up to a hell load on its own.

Again. Stop pulling the pirate card. If you want to examine the issue then how about the number of people that pirate mp3s and dry up revenue for small and independant labels? It works both ways.

quote:

Yes, I can hear the soundclip. Many of them. Tons and tons and tons of soundclips. Shit and generic soundclips. They just keep coming. How the hell do I find those few ones that are actually good from all that toss?

You would think given that all those people spent the time to, you know, ACTUALLY PRODUCE ALL THAT MUSIC that you would have some time to spend sifting through it to find the tunes you like.

If it is really that difficult - listen to something else thats 'good'. No point listening to this music if its a burden trying to find the stuff you like. Or get into a different style of music that produces 'good' stuff only (hahahahaha good luck).

Failing that, make your own 'good' music. If you can be arsed.

Last edited by Derivative on Jul-09-2006 at 16:35

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Originally posted by Derivative Its amazing how cynical some of you can be. I paid for all my gear all my software and I know several others that have too. Dont tar us all with the same brush

Strange as it may seem, I happen to be a part of "us" as well. Nobody has tarred "us" all with the same brush - you just seem to take everything personally. We've been talking about the guys who do samey sounding garbage day in day out in order to get signed... which, unfortunately, seem to be the majority of bedroom producers these days.

quote:

You would think given that all those people spent the time to, you know, ACTUALLY PRODUCE ALL THAT MUSIC that you would have some time to spend sifting through it to find the tunes you like.

Yeah, the same guys who produce a tune a day. Ooh, it's just really hard work to chuck some presets together and use that same fucking supersaw riff and plinky synths you hear all the time on ASOT because that's what sells, right? Just take a look at the Music Producers Promotion forum - about half of them are "signed" to some pseudo-"label", it's just ridiculous... and they all sound exactly the same.

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If it is really that difficult - listen to something else thats 'good'. No point listening to this music if its a burden trying to find the stuff you like. Or get into a different style of music that produces 'good' stuff only (hahahahaha good luck).

Amazingly, I barely listen to trance anymore. "Hahahaha good luck" indeed.

quote:

Failing that, make your own 'good' music. If you can be arsed.

I do.

___________________
Latest releases:
Endless Cycles [Capital Heaven]
The Charlatan [Morphosis]

quote:

Originally posted by Derivative HAHAHA. The cost of all your bloody equipment. How did you miss that?! Also you have bandwidth costs to consider. The cost is less than a major label distribution. But then again your circulation is smaller too so you make much less money. Think about it. I have spent thousands on my home studio setup and I still need to spend a couple more thousand to even get it up to snuff for acoustic recording. Digital circulation with very little advertising or promotion you will never make the cost of your equipment back let alone the cost of bandwidth. You can make a small performance royalty provided you sign up to a society that handles it for you. But theres a fee to join and you wont get a massive amount of airtime. Because you dont make any physical copies, you lose the another revenue stream - mechanical royalties. That leaves the major source of money to performance. Alot of people just get into spinning records instead of a full blown live setup because: 1) Easy to get all your rig trashed. 2) The logistics of it are complicated and moving it all around is expensive and inconvenient. 3) On small scale distribution you still wont be making mega bucks. You seriously make fuck all money out of this business until you are big enough that you can be considered a brand name.

and which of these is an expense of a digital label?

___________________
People who own my ass: Citric Acid, Boomer187, Tribu, Sand Leaper,
Jackson, venomX, jamie, Renegade, Konjin, Akridrot, Miss Bliss.
Psy-T - Down The Rabbit Hole (400minute long acid set)

Trance is too big to just die imo,the hardcore underground fans will still be around as always - I'm still lov'in it whatever

Theres more to trance than whats said on here though so get out there and enjoy it with the other hardcore fans otherwise,watever lol

___________________
http://soundcloud.com/drewwihl

quote:

Originally posted by Mr.Mystery Strange as it may seem, I happen to be a part of "us" as well. Nobody has tarred "us" all with the same brush - you just seem to take everything personally. We've been talking about the guys who do samey sounding garbage day in day out in order to get signed... which, unfortunately, seem to be the majority of bedroom producers these days.

Wow. Alot of assumptions there I see. Majority of bedroom producers? Citations?

Closer to the truth - people will be people and there will always be someone trying to make a buck out of what they do. Inevitability. It was always like that. Its still like that. What part of trance has died then? Or have you just gotten bored and moved on?

I take it then that you and me are two of the shitty bedroom producers along for the ride huh?

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and which of these is an expense of a digital label?

I wasnt talking about the expense of the label. Even still bandwidth is their responsibility and promotion. They do less of it, they get less revenue from artists. Why is this so hard to understand? There is also mastering equipment and staff (if applicable). If mastering equipment is not applicable you still have to pay others like Metropolis to do it for you. A snip at 120 quid a track. Staff? Im sure you know what minimum wage is right?

Really the only thing that gets me is people making stupid comments like bedroom producers are responsible for the poor quality of music in 2006. Pure unadultered retardedness. Not even taking into account the subjectivity of music. Blah.

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Originally posted by Derivative Wow. Alot of assumptions there I see. Majority of bedroom producers? Citations?

Just look at the MPP. Nobody seems to care about anything but getting signed, and the tracks sound just like that as well. It didn't use to be that way a couple of years ago.

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What part of trance has died then?

Creativity.

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Or have you just gotten bored and moved on?

Yes. The reason? See above.

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I take it then that you and me are two of the shitty bedroom producers along for the ride huh?

Okay then.

___________________
Latest releases:
Endless Cycles [Capital Heaven]
The Charlatan [Morphosis]

Last edited by Mr.Mystery on Jul-09-2006 at 19:18

quote:

Originally posted by daeus Trance is too big to just die imo,the hardcore underground fans will still be around as always - I'm still lov'in it whatever Theres more to trance than whats said on here though so get out there and enjoy it with the other hardcore fans otherwise,watever lol

I totally agree.

Just had a look at a cd of 1994 XXL III which I bought in Belium and what's on it:

Jam & Spoon
Jens
Culture Beat
Daft Punk
Nightravers
S.W.A.T. (The fly is dead)
The Ultimate Seduction
Cherrymoon Trax
Dave Clark Red1
Robert Armani

Hardcore - House - Trance - Rave went hand in hand those days. Allthought I considered myselves a trance fan, I defenitly liked many of the others.

I liked (and still do): Jam & Spoon, Faithless, Scooter, Cappella, 2Fabiola, Culture Beat, Yves de Ruyter, Red5, Chicane, BBE, DJ Quicksilver, Three 'n One, Cherrymoon Trax and many more.

What do they all have in common?

I think some of you try to put trance in a little box without seeing that it doesn't fit in a small box....

Different styles were combined, but without the trance part I probably wouldn't like them at all. So isn't it trance any more if there is a hardcore beat underneath? O shit, no then we would need to call it Hard-Trance of course.

Trance 1999 = Trance 2006

Next to that it is completly ridiculous to advice someone to avoid A.S.O.T., like someone did. Everybody should listen what he or she likes regardless of who made it or what style it is or sounds like.

___________________

Longest (classic) Trance playlist on YouTube (5000 tracks released up to and including 1997), click here

quote:

Originally posted by Derivative With all due respect - fuck off. Before you make totally ignorant comments about how easy it is to get signed, why dont you actually try getting signed? I assure you it is difficult and I have tried. 2 years production experience. 8 years on guitar and piano. And still got alot to learn and alot to fix before I am anywhere close to getting a record deal. As with any industry that has a business side to it - getting your foot through the door is less about what you know than it is about who you know. It has always been like this. And its the same outside music. Id really like to see you have a go at building a sound on a semi modular/modular virtual analogue synth today and see how much harder it is to get a sound out of it than an analogue polysynth straight out of the 80s. Id really like to see you play some of those said Polysynths and realise just how many memorable synth hooks from classic trance tunes are straight presets. Id like to see you work a 50 hour week for 3 months straight so that you can afford to pay for a Jupiter-6. Id like to see you learn material acoustics, sound engineering, music production, sound design, DSP coding (and the calculus that goes with it) and how to play all your instruments all at the same time. Because thats what alot of us do nowadays. A number of us are also holding down full time jobs because all the equipment we use is expensive. Because most producers that are not big enough to have their name on a T-Shirt make fuck all out of a record deal. Some dont even break even so they are making music at a loss. We make music because we love it and if you dont, then thats a subtle hint to broaden your horizons and listen to something else. I cannot stand this kind of ignorance. With the accessibility of music production resources these days comes an influx of new talent. You just have to look harder to find the stuff you like. As with anything where the volume of art being produced massively increases, it is inevitable that each individual will not connect with the majority of it. Do not blame it on the producers. We do this because we love it and we are getting ripped off whilst doing it. And after all that we still have petulent little twats like you telling us we suck at the end of the day. NICE ONE!

I'm really sorry that you have such a hard time getting signed but it may be so because you really really suck. I have several friends which produce and yesterday one of them mailed me and told me that two different digital trance labels wanted to sign him for a half finished tune which wasn't anything special at all. This is the reality. Sorry to bother you but the truth is that you can go from sratch to production and get signed just with one tool; Reason.
This is the bloody truth and there are loads of producers which got signed just by fiddling around in Reason.

I am not putting the main blame on producers but the labels. They are the one which are responsible for who gets signed.

___________________
My new oldskool TRANCE mix!

quote:

Originally posted by Derivative I wasnt talking about the expense of the label.

i was, and it was stated in my original post.

quote:

Originally posted by Derivative Even still bandwidth is their responsibility

correction: bandwidth is the shops' responsibility, not the labels'.

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Originally posted by Derivative and promotion. They do less of it, they get less revenue from artists. Why is this so hard to understand?

promotion, they do some of it - they have to pay for it; they do none of it, they don't have to pay for it, and they're still likely to sell a few copies. disregarding the fact that you can do a lot of your promotion today for next to nothing on the internet.

quote:

Originally posted by Derivative There is also mastering equipment and staff (if applicable). If mastering equipment is not applicable you still have to pay others like Metropolis to do it for you. A snip at 120 quid a track. Staff? Im sure you know what minimum wage is right?

i wouldn't be too confident on the existence of good mastering in the digi-label world at large

___________________
People who own my ass: Citric Acid, Boomer187, Tribu, Sand Leaper,
Jackson, venomX, jamie, Renegade, Konjin, Akridrot, Miss Bliss.
Psy-T - Down The Rabbit Hole (400minute long acid set)

@Derivitive: Man, you are off on a rant here and seriously missing a few pieces of the picture not to mention a fair amount of relevant perspective.

Why can't you realize that you are NOT an example of the average bedroom producer? The fact that you've actually spent thousands into your setup instead of just downloading the same pirated software and VST's being one huge difference. You may think it's so hard to get signed, but maybe that's because you are trying to be original in your creative process rather than sit down with your software based setup and trying to copy someone's formula in hopes of becoming ASOT's next generic one hit wonder. To say you're "getting ripped off at the end of the day" is quite odd. No one's ripping you off. If you got into producing as a means to make a quick buck you got into the wrong thing. Especially if you're following your own vision and not just trying to copy someone else's formula for success.

The perspective you are missing, is that of a DJ. Because like it or not, for us when it comes to a point of having to listen to track after track of crap it starts to just do your head in and before you know it you'll start looking at other genres instead which have more interesting/original sounding tracks and less percentage of garbage.

@UNworldly: you've heading in the wrong direction here. It's not about discouraging the up & comers because that's a bit ignorant as well as difficult to even go about. You simply can't tell someone not to produce music, however if you're a label you definitely CAN be more selective about what you're signing. If you have everyone tossed into one big pool and you have the choice of either discouraging the noobs or figuring out how to better support the established talent that's stuck around for the long haul and still producing good work, well the solution is obvious

Without the pioneers and the big guys, the little guys won't have much to look forward to. When the scene suffers because people become too bored with things and there's no thriving clubnight for those up & coming DJs to try to get booked at once they're good enough.. or when there's a sparse crowd to come out to see them when they do get in there due to the lack of hype/excitement about it, then you're in trouble.

It's about giving the hard working/established guys the support & respect they deserve and finding a way to help it stand out from being swamped in a sea of what is undoubtedly, a LOT of boring/uninspired/copycat productions. Productions that are turning lots of people away from the music and making it seem like that's all there is to offer if someone didn't know any better or have the time to sift through such an enourmous amount of stuff just to find the great tracks/djs.
The people who have been around longer are a lot more likely to be ABLE to produce something of a higher quality level and generally do less following than the up & comer. And of course I don't need to tell you that what's needed is not for everyone to give high praise to Oakey and Tiesto and their work when those are 2 great examples that most of us would say have lost their touch and ability to deliver. A crap/uninspired tune is still a crap tune regardless of if it was done by Tiesto or the guy down the street. There's a right way and a wrong way to interpret/implement what I was saying. It can be a fine line since it's a complicated issue, but there is a lot of truth to what I said and how it's contributed to where things stand right now.

Simply put, right now you can't take a piss without crossing paths with a bedroom producer, someone who's got a new track coming out, a radio show they are promoting, or their latest mix available for download. Meanwhile, we are all too cool for school and nothing is much of a big deal anymore.

___________________

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WWW.DJNEMESIS.COM :: MYSPACE.COM/DJNEMESIS

Last edited by DJ NEMESIS on Jul-09-2006 at 21:49

quote:

Originally posted by DJ NEMESIS @Derivitive: Man, you are off on a rant here and seriously missing a few pieces of the picture not to mention a fair amount of relevant perspective. Why can't you realize that you are NOT an example of the average bedroom producer? The fact that you've actually spent thousands into your setup instead of just downloading the same pirated software and VST's being one huge difference. You may think it's so hard to get signed, but maybe that's because you are trying to be original in your creative process rather than sit down with your software based setup and trying to copy someone's formula in hopes of becoming ASOT's next generic one hit wonder. To say you're "getting ripped off at the end of the day" is quite odd. No one's ripping you off. If you got into producing as a means to make a quick buck you got into the wrong thing. Especially if you're following your own vision and not just trying to copy someone else's formula for success. The perspective you are missing, is that of a DJ. Because like it or not, for us when it comes to a point of having to listen to track after track of crap it starts to just do your head in and before you know it you'll start looking at other genres instead which have more interesting/original sounding tracks and less percentage of garbage.

What on earth makes you think that the average bedroom producer pirated everything? if I am missing the DJ perspective you are just as equally missing the producer's perspective and we have to agree to disagree.

Also I dont care about being ripped off and neither do the people I know that are signed. Like I said, we do it because we love it. It still doesnt mean I have to enjoy being collectivised with a group of people creditted with the downfall of music

As for you having to sift through hundreds of records to find one you like. Oh poor you. Sarcasm intended. As I said before, if someone can take the time and effort to craft the song, you can take out the 10 seconds it takes to dismiss it and move onto the next one. If you find that difficult or annoying then you are also in the wrong industry.

Also, when will people begin to realise just how derivative all music is? Some more than others but its not a genre thing and it happens all the time. Its part of the process of making music and nothing is totally original. Some are more than others but instead of pissing about trying to find something to blame for the ones you dont like, how about spending that effort a little more constructively.

I know Mr. Mystery produces and hes a cynical bastard at the best of times so I wont even bother rubbing shoulders with him in this thread. But really, people in this industry get exactly what they deserve. No more, no less. If you dont like ASOT, dont listen to ASOT. Dont buy any tunes associated with ASOT. Work towards pioneering your own music or help build your own scene.

How many people actually piss on other people's work and yet do not have even a 1/10th of the talent, initiative or inclination to even try to make it better? What seriously is the point?