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Haunted
one scary ass mothertruck



Registered: Oct 2001
Location:

quote:
Originally posted by aNYthing

Now, speaking of Big Bang - my theory is that we're bunch of microbes sitting in some supreme aliens elementary school's laboratory beaker as sub-primal culture of microbes. They are studying the subject of "Self destruction" and we're a lab material. We think we are important, big, advanced, etc. But in reality - we're not even visible to a naked eye. Oh, and that Big Bang - all a part of this lab experiment. Billions of years? Yah. Only to us. To them - fraction of a second. How's that for theory of relativity? How's that for "Big Bang" theory?




Ok then. so what kind of universe are the aliens in? are they experiments in a bigger laboratory?


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Old Post Feb-28-2007 17:00  Zimbabwe
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Candeeman
Retired Tranceaddict



Registered: Jul 2005
Location: Godskitchen

I think the docu will be on TV next week or something....


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Old Post Feb-28-2007 19:12  Canada
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pkcRAISTLIN
arbiter's chief minion



Registered: Jul 2002
Location:

quote:
Originally posted by Pheobius
The idea that science excludes god is nonsense. Just because we can explain something by science doesn't mean God didn't create it, it just means we understand a little more of God's kingdom.


i dont think anybody is saying this though. still, religion isn't going to provide us with any answers about anything ever, so science still has the upper hand as a method of inquiry.


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Old Post Feb-28-2007 21:51  Australia
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Floorfiller
Girl + Sweater = Hotness



Registered: Apr 2002
Location: Illegal Pete's

so i'm watching the documentary on this on the discovery channel now...it's pretty convincing so far...answers most of the questions people are skeptical about in this thread...

i hope you'll all get the chance to watch it...

or go to the website www.discovery.com/tomb

Old Post Mar-05-2007 03:24 
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igottaknow
PerfectTeeth R4 Dinosaurs



Registered: Feb 2001
Location: The Future

I've know for years Christianity was fraud thats why I've switched to Scientology

Old Post Mar-05-2007 06:56 
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david.michael
Supreme tranceaddict



Registered: Sep 2003
Location: Dayton, OH, USA

I'm not saying anything one way or another, but a friend of mine who is a Christian forwarded this to me in an e-mail, so I figured I would play Devil's Advocate (err.... or whatever the opposite of that would be) and paste it here.

THE LOST TOMB OF JESUS
This Sunday the Discovery Channel will debut a made-for-TV documentary titled "The Lost Tomb of Jesus." Filmmakers claim that a tomb in the Talpiot neighborhood of Jerusalem is the final resting place of Jesus of Nazareth and several members of his family. Not only does the documentary seek to undermine the deity of Christ, it attempts to substantiate the Magdalene Heresy made popular by Dan Brown's book The DaVinci Code.

The Talpiot tomb was originally discovered in 1980. It is a large tomb that contained ten ossuaries (an ossuary is a chest that holds skeletal remains). Archaeologists say there is nothing extraordinary about the tomb, but filmmakers believe they have made a discovery that will shake the very foundations of Christianity. They believe the tomb contained the remains of Jesus of Nazareth, as well as his mother Mary, his father Joseph, and other family members. They also speculate that one of the ossuaries found in the tomb contains the remains of Mary Magdalene. According to the filmmakers, their "discovery" supports claims that Jesus and Mary Magdalene where married and may have had children.

A Fraud of Titanic Proportions

The writer, producer, and director of the Discovery Channel documentary is Simcha Jacobovici and its executive producer is James Cameron, the man who brought us the film Titanic. Jacobovici was the driving force behind the documentary, however he is not an archaeologist and his speculations leave many questions unanswered. In fact, most of the scholars who have reviewed his claims - even those who are not Christians - have raised objections to the validity of his assertions. Jacobovici lays out an impressive array of data, including the results of DNA-testing and statistical analysis. However, while Jacobovici does a good job of selling his speculations, he can't actually prove any of them. Scientists and scholars around the world have been quick to point out the many holes in his theory.

When the Talpiot tomb was originally excavated more than 26 years ago, the ossuaries were taken to the Rockefeller Archaeological Museum outside the Old City of Jerusalem. Joe Zias, who was the curator for anthropology and archeology at the museum from 1972 to 1997, personally numbered the Talpiot ossuaries. Zias has criticized on the Discovery Channel documentary saying, "Projects like these make a mockery of the archeological profession." He further stated that the show's producers have "no credibility whatsoever."

What's in a Name?

Of the ten ossuaries found in the tomb, six of them had inscriptions. Although in some cases, the "inscriptions" appear to be little more than crudely scratched names. The names archeologists found carved on ossuaries in the Talpiot tomb were: Jesus son of Joseph, Maria, Mariamene, Matthew, Judas son of Jesus, and Jose (a diminutive of Joseph). Producers of the documentary believe that Mariamene (or Mary) is in fact Mary Magdalene. However there is no evidence directly connecting Mary Magdalene to the Mary in the tomb. Furthermore, scholars are quick to point out that these were all very common names. The name Mary is one of the most common of all ancient Jewish female names. In fact, during the first century, nearly 25 percent of women in Jerusalem, for example, were called Miriam or some derivative of that name. Even the name "Jesus" was a popular name in the first century; it has been discovered in at least 98 other tombs and on 21 other ossuaries.

The Gnostic Gospels

Much like DaVinci Code author Dan Brown, the documentary's producers relied heavily upon the so-called "Gnostic gospels" to support their conjectures concerning Jesus and Mary Magdalene (in particular the Gospel of Phillip). Scholars widely agree that none of the Gnostic gospels contain historically reliable information about the life of Jesus and that all were likely written in the second century or later - in contrast to the contemporaneous eyewitness accounts in the New Testament. The Gnostic gospels are not really "gospels" at all, but rather they are filled with unverifiable claims and were written under false pseudonyms in an attempt to gain legitimacy (i.e. the "Gospel of Philip" was not written by Philip, nor was it even written during his lifetime). These documents emerged during the centuries following the ministries of the Apostles and were universally rejected by the early church. The Gnostic gospels include The Gospel of Judas, The Gospel of Thomas, The Gospel of Philip, The Gospel of Mary, The Gospel of Truth, and about four dozen others.

The Ossuary of James

In addition to his other claims, Jacobovici believes that the now-infamous ossuary of James is authentic and that it may have come from the Talpiot tomb. (In 2003, the Israeli Antiquities Authority declared that the inscriptions on the James ossuary were modern forgeries. To this day, the ossuary's province of origin remains unknown. The collector who owned the ossuary has since been convicted of forging various other ancient artifacts.) According to Newsweek, the technique Jacobovici uses to "prove" the match between the James ossuary and the Talpiot tomb is a technology he calls "patina fingerprinting," which was essentially invented for the purposes of the film.

The Truth of the Matter

Amos Kloner is the archaeologist who oversaw the work at the tomb in 1980 and who authored the official report on the dig. He says the burial cave is not extraordinary. "It's a typical Jewish burial cave of a large size. The names on the ossuaries are very common names or derivatives of names. There is no likelihood that Jesus and his relatives had a family tomb. They were a Galilee family with no ties in Jerusalem. The Talpiot tomb belonged to a middle-class family from the first century CE." Recently he told The Jerusalem Post that, "It makes a great story for a TV film. But it's impossible. It's nonsense."

The conjectures presented in "The Lost Tomb of Jesus" are filled with holes. According Amos Kloner's report the tomb was disturbed in ancient times, and vandalized. Some of the biggest questions that remain unanswered relate to this early break-in: who vandalized the cave, when, what did they do there and why? Also, it is highly unlikely that Joseph, who died in Galilee, was buried in Jerusalem (he would have most likely been buried in Nazareth or Bethlehem). The Talipot tomb and ossuaries also clearly belonged to a rich family. Why would Jesus' family have a tomb outside of Jerusalem if they were from Nazareth? Why would they have a tomb if they were poor? More importantly, there is no DNA evidence to suggest that the remains in the Talipot tomb are that of the historical Jesus of Nazareth. There is also no historical evidence that Jesus was ever married or had a child. Nor can the filmmakers refute historical evidence of Jesus' resurrection. Even the Roman centurions who were given the task of guarding the Jesus' tomb acknowledged that it was empty. After which, Jesus appeared in the flesh before hundreds of witnesses.

Ben Witherington, a professor at Asbury Theological Seminary, commented on the documentary saying, "Unfortunately, this is a story full of holes, conjectures and problems. It will make good TV and involves a bad critical reading of history. Basically, this is old news with a new interpretation. We have known about this tomb since it was discovered in 1980. There are all sorts of reasons to see this as much ado about nothing."

While the Discovery Channel documentary may not be true, it does indeed make for good television. Even more unfortunate, it makes for convincing television. No doubt many who see it will be deceived. In times like these, when we find ourselves amidst an ever-increasing barrage of conflicting information, it is important to rely on God's Word for guidance and to remember that grace and truth come by Jesus Christ.








Additionally, here is a blog post of another friend of mine.


The news agencies and docu-propagandists are buzzing over the latest "bash Christianity" film and calling it "proof". What's up with that?


Claims:

1-- A set of coffins with common names inscribed on them and some bones inside is all you need to prove you found Jesus' grave.

2-- The people who had Jesus crucified didn't look for his alleged stolen body and smash Christianity before it started, but we found it after 2000 years. It was of course given much better care than the scriptures.

3-- If some Christians don't believe in a literal, physical resurrection, why should we?


Some observations:

1-- It's amazing how little evidence is required to debunk Christianity, but how enough is never enough to support it. The critics are showing their bias loud and clear. And Jesus was the son of a poor carpenter, not anyone who could afford expensive coffins for an entire family. DNA testing? Was it even done, and when, and by whom, and why aren't the archaeologists who discovered it decades ago claiming the honor and fame, instead of leaving it to this story teller?

2-- Theories on the "hidden body" scenario are nothing new. The fact is that the Jews were highly motivated to find any evidence of trickery, and yet they never went beyond making up the story; they never sent out search parties. Absolutely no effort was made to find the body-- something the skeptics would jump on if they were trying to prove the opposite. Funny how the skeptics start using the Bible as reliable evidence when it suits them.

3-- This also shows the deadliness of compromise among believers, that they would call Jesus' ascension "spiritual". It is the fruit of centuries of doubting the scriptures and not believing the only eyewitnesses to the events. They are traitors to the faith and to God, and will be held accountable.

Like all other such nonsense, the latest effort at revisionist history will fail to change anyone's mind. We live in a world where proven hoaxes are still being printed in college-level textbooks, where "reality" shows are fake, where bad is good and up is down. This is nothing new, just another way for the rich to get richer and the dumb to get dumber.


:: stirs the pot for fun ::

Old Post Mar-05-2007 14:53  United States
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Omega_M
Nostalgia



Registered: Jun 2005
Location: Ether

I saw the documentary last night and also the "critical look" discussion which was aired immediately afterwards. All I can say, is that the evidence is circumstantial and it warrant a more thorough scientific, archaeological and theological investigation.

1) Perform DNA analysis on either exhumed bone samples or fragments from all the ossuaries and determine the exact relationships of each individual with others.

2) Do carbon dating to narrow down the time frame of deaths to within a few years of the accepted dates of deaths of these individuals.

3) Let the forensic anthropologists do an examination of the bones of these individuals to determine whether the features match their accepted or believed features. I am pretty sure they can also determine the ages of these individuals at the time of their death.

4) Perform an independent statistical inquiry into the odds that these cluster of names are those of Jesus and his family.

5) Inquire about Mariamne and her relation with Jesus as well as the possibility of finding a reference to Jesus's son. Find interpretation in the books that are consistent with these findings.

6) Find more archaeological evidence that links Jesus and his followers to this place.


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Old Post Mar-05-2007 16:43  India
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Haunted
one scary ass mothertruck



Registered: Oct 2001
Location:

Omega, i saw the documentary show last night too and I agree. it was crazy! there is definitely a lot of facts that need to be taken into account. it's not just common names, but the exact spelling of the name and the fact that they were all together that raises an eyebrow.


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Old Post Mar-05-2007 17:44  Zimbabwe
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fmodena369
Supreme tranceaddict



Registered: Nov 2006
Location: Seatown

i'm gonna have 2 watch this next time it's on

Old Post Mar-05-2007 18:12  United States
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Marc Summers
I must behave



Registered: Jan 2005
Location: New York, USA

I agree with Omega_M. Circumstantial.

The critical look was kind of Biased.


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Old Post Mar-05-2007 19:10 
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_Ocean_Drive_
Supreme tranceaddict



Registered: Jul 2004
Location: Iwate

What crap arguments in this threads. Seems like many of the atheists who have posted don't have a clue.


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quote:
Originally posted by DJ Mikey Mike
Social outcasts are often of the opinion that they must have a drink before being able to loosen up with their inhibitions, thus being able to have a good time.

There's a word that sums up this sort of behaviour, and that word is 'reject.'

Old Post Mar-05-2007 19:49  Japan
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Floorfiller
Girl + Sweater = Hotness



Registered: Apr 2002
Location: Illegal Pete's

i thought the talk afterwards was a bit of a joke. sounded like they were trying to get off on some technicalities...

sure the research wasn't perfect, but like he said...he's just trying to start a discussion on a possibility...and everyone seems so quick to dismiss the possibility.

Old Post Mar-05-2007 21:34 
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