quote:

Originally posted by bas And you know...it's you.

the thread is cursed with stupidity

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- What is left of us -

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Originally posted by Dojomaster26 Thanks for responding. [quote]I have to disagree with you there. From talking to other club-goers in person, I have gleaned that all of them can strike up a conversation about one of the big Trance DJs, but can't ID Sammim's "Heater", for example. This is a subjective conclusion of course, but one that has come from a lot of time spent talking to others. Base knowledge of EDM also seems to differ depending on the region that I am in. In Atlanta, the people know about House music, and generally have a more robust sense of what's going on in the scene. In North Carolina, I get a LOT of people that may know a lot about Breaks, but otherwise only know who the top Trance DJs are, and no close to nothing about House (maybe they'll know about DJ Dan).

Unfortunately, you are appealing to your own personal anectodal experiences on state-to-state variance rather than merely acknowledging at face value the fact that house music is actually the most popular form of EDM in America besides Hiphop -- according to how accessible it is via commercial and public avenues (clubs, etc). Trust me, there are far more people going to their local clubs every night than traveling long distances to attend some obscure trance event in LA or Amsterdam.

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Again I have to disagree here, and I have factual evidence that "Trance" is in fact selling quite well in the States:

I can only find it unbelievably ironic that you would use two chart-riding HOUSE tracks as evidence to bolster your idea that "trance" is more popular?! That Cascada song is not even categorized as "Trance" by most labels, it is either under "House", "Progressive House" or "Euro-House" and possibly "Hard-Trance/Dance" (even discogs reflects what I'm saying to be correct)

And as for Paul Van Dyke's "White Lies", it is labeled at least equally as "house" and "electro", if not moreso, than as "trance".

And providing the hypothetical situation that your examples were actually on your side, I can't help but notice how you so conveniently choose to use a single current snapshot example while blissfully ignoring the wider picture which has demonstrated that cheesy house music like Eric's "Call on Me" or even Rihanna's "Don't Stop The Music" consistently win the popularity contest.

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Besides High School Musical, Trance is selling well. The fact that Oakie can out-sell Nine Inch Nails says a lot about how well known he is to the general public.

Again, you have yet to show me valid examples to even remotely corroborate the point you're trying to make.

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You are right. However, we (club-goers) represent a very small minority of Americans. An majority of Americans would rather go to a plain-old "traditional/sports" bar or a "meat-market" bar than dance all night to a DJ. The Billboard sales are reflecting all of those Trance CDs that are sold to people who are just looking for a CD to exercise to. Those people probably (assuming) have little to no prior knowledge of EDM, so when they go to the Dance section to find a CD, they will look for re-assurance before dropping $15 on some music. "THE NEWEST MIX FROM THE #1 DJ IN THE WORLD!", "THE DJ THAT PLAYED AT THE OLYMPICS", et all are far more convincing of a purchase to a non-EDM fan than the often ambiguous compilations that are sitting next to those Trance CDs. If the person asks a salesperson for advice on what to get, he/she will say "That Tiesto album has been selling well, and my raver buddy told me that hes a really good DJ."

But yet again, you're willingly overlooking the fact that although club-goers definitely represent a minority of Americans, they also pose as the best barometer to represent the MAJORITY of people who are interested in listening to "club music".

Also, what clubs play is a direct REFLECTION of what is popular in the charts, and house has been consistently beating trance in the clubbing department for a good length of time now.

Just take Miami or LA, for example. Most of the clubs play house! That's a fact...that's not my OPINION. It isn't 1999 anymore.

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That's how good marketing campaigns work, virally. People are exposed to the brand name and tell others about it, who will tell their friends, etc. "Tiesto" is a term that the public will have heard of from a friend, or a friend of a friend, because that name has been exposed to music fans through good marketing.

What you consider the DJ to be, in this case a "trance" dj, is not necessarily what the main public views him as, therefore trying to insinuate that trance is the "poppiest" of all the EDM styles is truly irresponsible and just flat out not true.

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Yes, House is everywhere, but the majority of Americans don't know that it is House, or who the artists are. They are more likely to call that jingle that plays in those HGTV "home makeover" or fashion shows "techno" than they are to call it "House", or to know that it is called "House". However, I don't think that most average Americans know that Oakie and co are "Trance" DJs, as I've heard them called "Techno" DJs more than anything else.

The most accurate statement you've made. I completely agree.

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In the end, this is mostly subjective. In your area there may be a lot of people who know a bit about EDM, but here its more like

You are correct. What is "cheesy" and what is "good" will always be a matter of great dispute, but a proper diagnosis on popularity can be much more easily acquired.

Last edited by chadi on Jan-16-2008 at 22:38

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Originally posted by chadi Also, you seem equally oblivious of the fact that DJ Tiesto, Paul Van Dyk and Armin Van Buuren are not even playing primarily trance music anymore, they are playing largely HOUSE MUSIC

What? Are you just talking out of your ass or living in a different dimension of reality?

___________________
"All revolutions are the sheerest fantasies until they happen; then they become historical inevitabilities."

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Originally posted by chadi Unfortunately, you are appealing to your own personal anectodal experiences on state-to-state variance rather than merely acknowledging at face value the fact that house music is actually the most popular form of EDM in America besides Hiphop -- according to how accessible it is via commercial and public avenues (clubs, etc).

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Trust me, there are far more people going to their local clubs every night than traveling long distances to attend some obscure trance event in LA or Amsterdam.

I definitely agree with you there. I will point out, however, that there are many times more people than all of us EDM-fans combined that would rather go to "watch the big game" at the local pub than go to ANY sort of Dance event, period. Again, neither of us have hard numbers to prove this, but from personal observation I have seen many EDM clubs open-and-close within a year, and Top40 Clubs and sports bars stay open ever since I've been in town.

Yes, I am using personal experience as part of my argument, because there are no reports, officials surveys, or factual reports that state that the majority of Americans know who Tiesto and PVD are compared to the number who know who Mark Farina is.

And how is it a "fact" that House is the most popular form of EDM in the States? Neither of us have hard evidence to prove that House or Trance is, as a fact, more popular. I have sales charts from Billboard that tell me that Trance albums and singles are out-selling Nine Inch Nails releases, but that's about it.

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I can only find it unbelievably ironic that you would use two chart-riding HOUSE tracks as evidence to bolster your idea that "trance" is more popular?!

Sorting songs by genre is the most subjective thing one can do here on TA. What you consider House, I call Trance.

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That Cascada song is not even categorized as "Trance" by most labels, it is either under "House", "Progressive House" or "Euro-House" and possibly "Hard-Trance/Dance" (even discogs reflects what I'm saying to be correct)

The average American is not going to categorize his/her music with these sub-genres. The average American relates Paul Van Dyk to "Trance", because of the success of "For An Angel", a TRANCE song. The average fan is going to think that Paul Van Dyk has always been known as a TRANCE artist, therefore they will label the new material as TRANCE, regardless of what we will call the new track.

And yes, I call the Cascada track "McTrance". Its easy to eat, but the aftertaste leaves much to be desired

Also, discogs is a place for people like you and I, who care about sorting our music by sub-genres et all. The average music fan's relationship with an artist starts and ends either at the retailer, or on the artists' official websites (and Myspace nowadays), or on P2P programs. Let me repeat, TA does not represent the average listener. Very very few people outside of our communities try to hunt down every single version of every song that their favorite artist put out, or go into painstaking detail about sorting their tracks, or spend hours each week listing to the DJ's livesets and trying to ID tracks from them. The average fan will buy the CD, put it in the car or iPod, and be done with it!

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And providing the hypothetical situation that your examples were actually on your side, I can't help but notice how you so conveniently choose to use a single current snapshot example while blissfully ignoring the wider picture which has demonstrated that cheesy house music like Eric's "Call on Me" or even Rihanna's "Don't Stop The Music" consistently win the popularity contest.

Where's your evidence that "Call On Me" has sold more copies than "Silence" or "For An Angel" or "9PM [Till I Come]"? Rihanna is not House music, and none of the House tracks that have been big hits have done quite as well as the Trance anthems from 1999.

(For the record, I am a much bigger fan of House than Trance. If it seems like I'm bashing the genre, I'm not.)

(The year-end Billboard charts are only available to subscribers. If anyone with a subscription can post those charts, it would be appreciated!)

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Again, you have yet to show me valid examples to even remotely corroborate the point you're trying to make.

What about the albums chart? Surely the strong sales of ISOS and Oakie's Greatest Hits prove my point. And don't even try to tellme that ISOS is not a Trance comp. Heck, Ultra.2008 probably has some Trance tracks on it, but I decided not to count that one due to it covering a spectrum of commercial EDM.

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Also, what clubs play is a direct REFLECTION of what is popular in the charts, and house has been consistently beating trance in the clubbing department for a good length of time now.

If you're talking about gay clubs, then yes, the club DJs' playlists are going to match up to what is charting (because the charts are filled with mostly Gay/Circuit House). And yes, you are right about House being a major player in the EDM club scene in the US. However, that does not mean that House is the best-selling genre in the States. The club-goers may be going to House events, but they are buying Trance CDs. Wouldn't Pryda and Samantha James and Deadmau5 be on the charts instead of PVD if those House fans were buying the tracks from their favorite House Producers and DJs?

The bottom line is that even though House rules the clubs, Trance rules the retail end of EDM. Trance sells more, so more Trance gets put on the shelves than House.

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What you consider the DJ to be, in this case a "trance" dj, is not necessarily what the main public views him as

The public views these brand names as "Trance" DJs becuase their classic tracks are defined by people like us as "Trance". Therefore, the average person equates PVD == Trance, for instance. PVD could put out a J-Polka Handbag Jungle record, and the public would still eat it up and call it "Trance" music.

What the music actually sounds like is irrelevant. I'm talking about the labels that the masses use here.

___________________
Overload (House/J-Pop/K-Pop): Click
No Pants Dance (Funky House/Electro House/K-Pop): Click
Dark Beach (Deep House): Click

I don't know if trance or house is/was pop, but i like 80s synth-POP/new-wave e.g. A Flock of Seagulls, OMD, Depeche Mode, Ultravox, New Order etc. they all rulled!

^ Are you Spirit5?

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Originally posted by teegee sometimes, i sit on my hand until its numb and then masturbate...i call that a stranger.

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Originally posted by eckmek ^ Are you Spirit5?

Who me? Ofcourse not how did that occured to you?

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Originally posted by paulandrews What? Are you just talking out of your ass or living in a different dimension of reality?

Describing yourself does not count as a rebuttal, sorry.

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And how is it a "fact" that House is the most popular form of EDM in the States? Neither of us have hard evidence to prove that House or Trance is, as a fact, more popular. I have sales charts from Billboard that tell me that Trance albums and singles are out-selling Nine Inch Nails releases, but that's about it.

Since you're so determined to go on pretending that my reference to the fact that the overwhelming amount of non-hiphop clubs play house music, which directly reflects what is more POPULAR (deducing from the fact that clubs play what is more popular), then it is futile for me to keep repeating myself.

However, just remember that any statements resembling "trance is more popular than house in America", sounds about as ludicrous as saying that "House is more popular than hiphop".

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The average American is not going to categorize his/her music with these sub-genres. The average American relates Paul Van Dyk to "Trance", because of the success of "For An Angel", a TRANCE song. The average fan is going to think that Paul Van Dyk has always been known as a TRANCE artist, therefore they will label the new material as TRANCE, regardless of what we will call the new track.

Why the sudden shift in gear? I thought we just got done covering that it's not as common for the average american to categorize any of these styles as "house", let alone trance - and that they are more likely to just call it techno?

This discussion has much less to do with what people call the genres, as opposed to which style - trance or house (according to general definitions) - is the more dominant (popular) style of EDM in America. And as the facts have thus far shown, house is. I mean, if we wanted to get technical here, we could argue that those songs are neither trance nor house, but that would be a complete bypass of the point I'm trying to make here, which is the persecution of trance music as being "more popular" or "cheesy" over house music, when the reality is just exactly the opposite.

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Also, discogs is a place for people like you and I, who care about sorting our music by sub-genres et all. The average music fan's relationship with an artist starts and ends either at the retailer, or on the artists' official websites (and Myspace nowadays), or on P2P programs. Let me repeat, TA does not represent the average listener. Very very few people outside of our communities try to hunt down every single version of every song that their favorite artist put out, or go into painstaking detail about sorting their tracks, or spend hours each week listing to the DJ's livesets and trying to ID tracks from them. The average fan will buy the CD, put it in the car or iPod, and be done with it!

And if we pretended for just one moment that Cascada's latest track IS actually, according to all sources, trance, do you really expect that song to get more spins at a club than Rihanna's "Don't Stop The Music"?

To find even more evidence supporting the reality that "house is more popular than trance", you need to look no further than the blazing fact that every pop song, from Beyonce to Rihanna to Nelly Furtado to Justin Timberlake, all get a host of "house remix" treatments. You'll rarely (if at all) find a trance remix of ANY of these songs that will be played in a club.

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Where's your evidence that "Call On Me" has sold more copies than "Silence" or "For An Angel" or "9PM [Till I Come]"? Rihanna is not House music, and none of the House tracks that have been big hits have done quite as well as the Trance anthems from 1999.

Forgive me for finding it most hilarious that you would ask me for evidence that "call on me" has sold more copies than the examples you provided, and yet turn around and give me a purportedly factual statement about how no house tracks have done as well as the trance anthems from 99 - without providing proof consistent with your own criteria. And all this, while going on your merry way pretending that my reference to the popularity of house as a staple club music(which far exceeds the presence that trance is able to sneak in every now and then), holds absolutely no merit. Mindblowing!

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Rihanna is not House music

Rihanna's "Don't Stop The Music", IS HOUSE (and needless to say, a desperately cheesy interpretation), like it or not.

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(For the record, I am a much bigger fan of House than Trance. If it seems like I'm bashing the genre, I'm not.)

Oh don't worry, I could have guessed that by virtue of the fact that you are quite determined [and desperate, I might add] to ensure that "trance" receives the bigger title of "pop" way before your pet-style "house" does.

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What about the albums chart? Surely the strong sales of ISOS and Oakie's Greatest Hits prove my point. And don't even try to tellme that ISOS is not a Trance comp. Heck, Ultra.2008 probably has some Trance tracks on it, but I decided not to count that one due to it covering a spectrum of commercial EDM.

Would you try to sit here with me and actually deny that Tiesto, PVD, and AVB have been consistently and progressively including more house in their compilations, spinning it at events, and even producing it?

I think you better face up to the fact that "HOUSE" is "IN" right now. Even Sensation White, which used to play a lot more trance, has totally gone for the more housey sound...

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What the music actually sounds like is irrelevant. I'm talking about the labels that the masses use here.

So now that you've conceded that house music is more popular in clubs, are you trying to tell me that more people "KNOW" what trance is in america than they do "house"? Like, what exactly are you trying to say?

Because, if I'm not hallucinating, you just got done telling me that the masses are for more likely to call trance or anything they few as "electronic dance music" "techno". And if you would like to stick with that, I would have to say that I completely agree with you.

Last edited by chadi on Jan-17-2008 at 00:50

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Originally posted by chadi Describing yourself does not count as a rebuttal, sorry. Since you're so determined to go on pretending that my reference to the fact that the overwhelming amount of non-hiphop clubs play house music, which directly reflects what is more POPULAR, then it is futile for me to keep repeating myself. However, just remember that any statements resembling "trance is more popular than house in America", sounds about as ludicrous as saying that "House is more popular than hiphop". Why the sudden shift in gear? I thought we just got done covering that it's not as common for the average american to categorize any of these styles as "house", let alone trance - and that they are more likely to just call it techno? This discussion has much less to do with what people call the genres, as opposed to which style - trance or house (according to general definitions) - is the more dominant (popular) style of EDM in America. And as the facts have thus far shown, house is. I mean, if we wanted to get technical here, we could argue that those songs are neither trance nor house, but that would be a complete bypass of the point I'm trying to make here, which is the persecution of trance music as being "more popular" or "cheesy" over house music, when the reality is just exactly the opposite. And if we pretended for just one moment that Cascada's latest track IS actually, according to all sources, trance, do you really expect that song to get more spins at a club than Rihanna's "Don't Stop The Music"? To find even more evidence supporting the reality that "house is more popular than trance", you need to look no further than the blazing fact that every pop song, from Beyonce to Rihanna to Nelly Furtado to Justin Timberlake, all get a host of "house remix" treatments. You'll rarely (if at all) find a trance remix of ANY of these songs that will be played in a club. Forgive me for finding it most hilarious that you would ask me for evidence that "call on me" has sold more copies than the examples you provided, and yet turn around and give me a purportedly factual statement about how no house tracks have done as well as the trance anthems from 99 - without providing proof consistent with your own criteria. And all this, while going on your merry way pretending that my reference to the popularity of house as a staple club music(which far exceeds the presence that trance is able to sneak in every now and then), holds absolutely no merit. Mindblowing! Rihanna's "Don't Stop The Music", IS HOUSE (and needless to say, a desperately cheesy interpretation), like it or not. Oh don't worry, I could have guessed that by virtue of the fact that you are quite determined [and desperate, I might add] to ensure that "trance" receives the bigger title of "pop" way before your pet-style "house" does. Would you try to sit here with me and actually deny that Tiesto, PVD, and AVB have been consistently and progressively including more house in their compilations, spinning it at events, and even producing it? I think you better face up to the fact that "HOUSE" is "IN" right now. Even Sensation White, which used to play a lot more trance, has totally gone for the more housey sound... So now that you've conceded that house music is more popular in clubs, are you trying to tell me that more people "KNOW" what trance is than they do "house"? Because, if I'm not hallucinating, you just got done telling me that the masses call trance "techno". And if you would like to stick with that, I would have to say that I completely agree with you.

Wow, so much effort for something no one will read.

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Originally posted by d-miurge Wow, so much effort for something no one will read.

I love pointless responses, they make threads look so popular.

...now, let's dance to some fab house!

http://youtube.com/watch?v=xsRWpK4pf90

Last edited by chadi on Jan-17-2008 at 00:22

chadi has perpetually shown himself to be one of the most ignorant, least educated posters on this board. This is even after he changed names. I would just stop arguing, you'll save yourself a headache.

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Originally posted by UWM chadi has perpetually shown himself to be one of the most ignorant, least educated posters on this board. This is even after he changed names. I would just stop arguing, you'll save yourself a headache.

Translation:

Because I would rather lose my life than concede a point, it is necessary that I resort to my traditional ad hominem tactics in order to secure my own self-worth on this board.

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but i like 80s synth-POP/new-wave e.g. A Flock of Seagulls, OMD, Depeche Mode, Ultravox, New Order etc. they all rulled!

Hehe...I think I must agree. How about Alphaville?