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Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN In the west, we have the rule of law to prevent our governments from suddenly siezing control. The traditions and institutions of government and western democracy are what keeps tyrants at bay, not the local gun collector.

Ah yes, the laws they write and pass themselves to override those principles. Whether its unauthorized surveillance or something like this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rex_84

The biggest threat to a civilized society is not guns, it's the people who place blind faith into the hands of their government. As Thomas Jefferson once said, "The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants."

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Originally posted by Aquadyne PKC, Since you live in Australia, I would actually advise you to loosen some gun laws seeing the problems that you have... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_politics_in_Australia Might as well just start legalizing them. At least you would give responsible citizens a chance to defend themselves too. For now, I wouldn't worry about a malevolent government trying to rob the citizenry of its rights since Kevin Rudd doesn't seem to be that clever. As it is, I bid you a good night.

what are you banging on about? you just told me that the buy-back scheme got a massive amount of unregistered firearms out of the hands of the populace. so what?

firearm use in crime is also miniscule compared to the US, and is also down compared to australia's history. the gun laws in australia are pointed to as an example of what can be achieved with strict gun control.

your "logic" confuses me

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Originally posted by Aquadyne Ah yes, the laws they write and pass themselves to override those principles. Whether its unauthorized surveillance or something like this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rex_84 The biggest threat to a civilized society is not guns, it's the people who place blind faith into the hands of their government. As Thomas Jefferson once said, "The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants."

very true. however these are still a far cry from any situation we have invented here for ourselves. you just wouldnt be able to do what hitler did after assuming government in 33.

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Originally posted by MrJiveBoJingles Nothing, of course, but I thought we were talking about a fantasy scenario where a Hitleresque or Stalinesque leader with blind and cruel followers takes hold of the U.S. In that case, the scenario or something very like it would fit.

Even the American Revolution happened over a taxation issue, a far cry from a despot terrorizing and enslaving the population. Should the US ever rebel, the impetus to do so will be far lighter than some dramatic despot seizing power. The lack of willingness of the military to execute obscene orders is a major component of the resistance.

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Historical precedent. Resistance simply does not last very long in the face of collective punishment of the innocent. The reason it gets used so little is that few people are psychotic enough to put it into practice and still live with themselves.

True, but there have been a large number of cases where exactly the opposite happened. I suspect that given the American national character that surrender would not be an option.

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Originally posted by Aquadyne The lack of willingness of the military to execute obscene orders is a major component of the resistance.

so why then does the citizenry need to be armed?

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Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN what are you banging on about? you just told me that the buy-back scheme got a massive amount of unregistered firearms out of the hands of the populace. so what? firearm use in crime is also miniscule compared to the US, and is also down compared to australia's history. the gun laws in australia are pointed to as an example of what can be achieved with strict gun control. your "logic" confuses me

Is it really so difficult?

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In the year 2002/2003, over 85% of firearms used to commit murder were unregistered.[28] In 1997-1999, more than 80% of the handguns confiscated were never legally purchased or registered in Australia.[15] Knives are used up to 3 times as often as firearms in robberies.[29] The majority of firearm related deaths involved the use of hunting rifles, with their share being most pronounced in firearm suicides.[14]

Yeah, that gun control works wonders.

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Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN so why then does the citizenry need to be armed?

Because it's not the only component.

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Originally posted by Aquadyne Is it really so difficult? Yeah, that gun control works wonders.

you obviously dont understand what you've quoted. you're paying attention to the completely wrong statistic. how many firearms are unregistered when committing an offence is completely irrelevant you fool. its how many guns were used in crime that matters, of which all statistics are down. idiot.

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Ok. You keep telling that to yourself.

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Originally posted by Aquadyne Ok. You keep telling that to yourself.

Australia doesn't have school shootings every month like the US, and it has far less random homicides and gun-assisted robberies per head than the US.

Regardless of whether the weapons used were registered or not, what does that tell you?

Secondly, regardless of whether the guns used to commit the crimes are registered, strict gun laws means LESS guns will be available to criminals, registered or unregistered.

I also think Zild is speaking for alot of people that have decided to remain silent, yet their prescence is thicker than air.

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Originally posted by diggerz LOL gene pool Yeah, things are fucked up. The economy is shit, there's a war going on, kids not in school, drugs, etc... But, have you ever been south of the U.S border? A third world country ? If you have, you can't really tolerate the thought of people "panicking about the state of things", when in other countries, hope and excitement for the future have been lost in midst of poverty, awfull education systems, skewed governments and communist radicals. You can't really say the US is in such a bad shape when there are alot of things developing in the nuclear, alternative energy, high-tech industries and various research projects focused on discovering cures for deadly illnesses that will change the world, America is a machine, a locomotive, an F-1 that has spent way too much time at a pit-stop

Why are you comparing the USA to third world countries?

That's the whole problem - your country is a so called "superpower", with such vast wealth, population, power and intelligence, yet the country is rife with crime and social problems that other wealthy countries also face but which manage to control.

It's within your power to fix these things yet keep letting things get in the way.

Perfect example - an American soldier interviewed in Iraq said that he was happy to be part of the war, because his neighbourhood at home was more dangerous (than a fucking WAR ZONE). Statistics compiled by the journalist proved this to be true - the guy's neighbourhood had a higher mortality rate by violence than Iraq.

There are no neighbourhoods like this in Australia, or indeed many other "first world" countries. Of course, we have areas which are more dangerous than others, but no where like Compton or the Bronx.

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Originally posted by MrJiveBoJingles Wanting a gun for self-defense is so barbaric. The only civilized thing to do when you encounter a violent armed criminal is to snivel and cry helplessly as you do what he says and hope the police arrive to take him away. Everybody knows that!

In light of the fact that this thread is about SCHOOLS, for what reason do you think criminals would have reason to attack a school? For money? For drugs?

Perhaps you were referring to teachers needing to defend themselves against kids who might bring a gun to school? This brings us to two points:

a) Tighter gun controls would prevent kids from getting guns.

b) Perhaps you need to examine the social problems which cause children to shoot up your schools.

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Originally posted by MrJiveBoJingles Anyone who even thinks of carrying a gun for self-defense is just trying to be a cowboy and probably has serious masculinity issues and a low IQ to boot, as all good Europeans know and typically inform Americans whenever this topic comes up.

Relating to violent neighbourhoods, unless you live in one you shouldn't need a gun. If you got rid of all firearms, the need to defend yourself with one would disappear.

Again, why do you think the USA is so different to the rest of the world? Europe, UK, Australia and Canada don't have problems even approaching yours, despite having similar economies and cultures.

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Originally posted by MrJiveBoJingles Let's get on with banning cars!

Ridiculous analogy.

As pkc said, cars have a useful function in society, and so death caused by them is far easier to legitamize.

Firearms have function only for police and security guards, so it's reasonable for us to say that guns should be banned or at least have laws regarding them tightened.

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Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN do you not wonder why you live in perpetual fear of attack moreso than citizens of other comparable countries?

This.

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Originally posted by MrJiveBoJingles Our poorest twenty percent are poorer and dumber than the poorest twenty percent in most other Western countries, and for the most part poor and dumb people are the ones who commit violent crimes. There are other things as well, but I think that may be the biggest reason.

Point taken, however, going back to the old chestnut; take away the guns and poor people will not have the firepower to commit these crimes.

They could still use knives or something else, but they're a far cry from guns.