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Originally posted by Dj Smitty20 Wow dude. So because I support the right to organise and I have issues with businesses (across the board) increasingly cheaping out on their employees, that means I don't live in the real world? I teach in the secondary system and I put in, on average, 10-11 hour days. I volunteer a shitload of my own time too. Do I get paid enough? That's debatable, but I probably do better than a lot of you on here and I would still support YOUR right to go on strike if you were getting the shaft. I also don't complain much, because I'm putting in my time and paying my dues. But when or if the time comes for Ontario secondary school teachers to go on strike again like they did 10 years ago, I'll be out supporting my union. Are you the kind of person that thinks a guy who is injured on an assembly line shouldn't get compensation? Or do you think it's fair for someone in a non-unionised environment to put in 11-12 hour days but only get paid for 8, all in the effort to be "productive"? If you don't think that kind of crap happens in the white or "pink" collar world, then perhaps you should join the real world.

Not at all. My point is that CUPE has completely unrealistic expectations here.

I am by no means a proponent of business cheaping out on employees, but I these are contract workers we're talking about here... there is no reason for them to have the benefits of tenured employees.

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Originally posted by DigiNut What's a little ironic to me about this whole clusterfuck is that the unions are screwing over their most ardent supporters outside of the unions themselves. The universities, the teachers, the ATU (TTC), all collectively flipping the bird to the Lib and Dipper generations. Can't be much longer before most of society catches onto the fact that unionization in its current incarnation is no longer a sustainable labour model.

For once I entirely agree with you.

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Originally posted by evil_cookie We are not in disagreement here--albeit I think that the use of the word ‘hostage’ is a little too melodramatic

My girlfriend's mother died when she was very young. Her father suddenly passed away recently leaving her, and her sister, with no provisions and no will... He was in his early forties.

She really needed to finish her education and English literature degrees during the F/W semester so she could get the teaching job she has lined up and move on with her life.

Money is running out and she is stuck working a menial part time job because she is stuck without her degree as a result of this labour situation. In a nutshell, the union has delayed her graduation date, delayed her ability to acquire a sustainable income, and put her job that she had lined up in jeopardy.

You tell me that isn't being held hostage...

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Originally posted by Dave Akermanis My girlfriend's mother died when she was very young. Her father suddenly passed away recently leaving her, and her sister, with no provisions and no will... He was in his early forties. She really needed to finish her education and English literature degrees during the F/W semester so she could get the teaching job she has lined up and move on with her life. Money is running out and she is stuck working a menial part time job because she is stuck without her degree as a result of this labour situation. In a nutshell, the union has delayed her graduation date, delayed her ability to acquire a sustainable income, and put her job that she had lined up in jeopardy. You tell me that isn't being held hostage...

Maybe she should take some of your friend’s advice:

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Originally posted by Skipper I've said it before - you don't like your job or the way you are treated, LEAVE. Don't whine and stomp your feet like a toddler until someone gives you a hand out.

Maybe she should have chosen a better, a more economically stable University--all one needs to do is look at the University’s history for strike probability. Your appeal to emotion is going to get as much sympathy from me as Skippy’s disregard for ‘miserable working conditions’ does.

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Originally posted by Skipper You can justify it all you want, but I am categorically against unions and your miserable work conditions aren't going to change that.

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Originally posted by evil_cookie Maybe she should take some of your friend’s advice: Maybe she should have chosen a better, a more economically stable University--all one needs to do is look at the University’s history for strike probability. Your appeal to emotion is going to get as much sympathy from me as Skippy’s disregard for ‘miserable working conditions’ does.

Completely different. Shes not whining and crying about it, shes doing something about it. She doesn't expect things to be handed to her on a silver platter like the union does.

I am merely pointing out that the union is fucking up people's lives.

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York union may fight back-to-work bill January 28, 2009 THE CANADIAN PRESS The union representing striking workers at York University says it's preparing a legal challenge of provincial legislation that would force teachers back to work. CUPE Ontario president Sid Ryan says the government-backed bill, which is expected to pass Thursday, won't make the issues at the heart of the strike go away. He says union lawyers are prepping their case, which can only be launched after the bill is passed. Premier Dalton McGuinty wouldn't say whether the government has a plan to deal with the potential roadblock. The union renewed their call for McGuinty to force the university to resume negotiations, but the premier says it's clear the bargaining process has failed. Some 50,000 students saw classes cancelled on Nov. 6 when 3,400 teaching assistants, contract faculty and graduate assistants walked off the job.

source:
http://www.thestar.com/news/gta/article/578576

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Palm Trees > Pine Trees , Sand > Snow

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Originally posted by Dave Akermanis Completely different. Shes not whining and crying about it, shes doing something about it. She doesn't expect things to be handed to her on a silver platter like the union does. I am merely pointing out that the union is fucking up people's lives.

Oh the irony...

You let me know how she feels, if and when she decides to teach at the secondary level in Toronto with the TDSB--in which case she will be a part of one of the most powerful unions in the country. I wonder what her views will be then...especially considering her--as you’ve so eloquently painted--distressful state of affairs; economic and otherwise. The same can also be said if she decides to teach at the post secondary level; though teaching at the post secondary--still considering her financial state--will most likely accentuate her soon to be evident 'whininess.'

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Originally posted by evil_cookie Oh the irony... You let me know how she feels, if and when she decides to teach at the secondary level in Toronto with the TDSB--in which case she will be a part of one of the most powerful unions in the country. I wonder what her views will be then...especially considering her--as you’ve so eloquently painted--distressful state of affairs; economic and otherwise. The same can also be said if she decides to teach at the post secondary level; though teaching at the post secondary--still considering her financial state--will most likely accentuate her soon to be evident 'whininess.'

I didn't realize we were talking about her opinion. Either way, your comments are irrelevant to the discussion.

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I wish I was part of a Union...

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Originally posted by Dave Akermanis I didn't realize we were talking about her opinion. Either way, your comments are irrelevant to the discussion.

Her opinion? It’s self-evident that you are speaking for her--your memory can’t be that bad. Did you forget your oh-so articulate appeal to emotion? Here it is:

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Originally posted by Dave Akermanis My girlfriend's mother died when she was very young. Her father suddenly passed away recently leaving her, and her sister, with no provisions and no will... He was in his early forties. She really needed to finish her education and English literature degrees during the F/W semester so she could get the teaching job she has lined up and move on with her life. Money is running out and she is stuck working a menial part time job because she is stuck without her degree as a result of this labour situation.

You paint a sad picture, and I’m telling you that unionization in secondary and post secondary institutions are in place particularly to help those like your girlfriend--that is after she gets a position. So spare me your illogical, selective, and double-standard way of reasoning. Either present your arguments logically, or at least admit that you’re being fallacious.

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Originally posted by evil_cookie Her opinion? It’s self-evident that you are speaking for her--your memory can’t be that bad. Did you forget your oh-so articulate appeal to emotion? Here it is: You paint a sad picture, and I’m telling you that unionization in secondary and post secondary institutions are in place particularly to help those like your girlfriend--that is after she gets a position. So spare me your illogical, selective, and double-standard way of reasoning. Either present your arguments logically, or at least admit that you’re being fallacious.

We're talking about the present for starters. Second, we're talking about a specific union... not the concept of unions as a whole.

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