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Originally posted by Shakka Wriggle around what? I still don't think you've made any sense. If I'm following you correctly, you're trying to argue that R&D expenses don't somehow impact profits. I have argued that they are a cost of development (though they get amortized over time) and are therefore a part of COGS. Whether talking about gross profit or net profit is irrelevant as the cost of R&D is one of the first things to come out of revenues and is included in both figures. Are you sure you know what you're talking about? If you do, I would really appreciate you elaborating and explaining exactly what your point is.

We're not talking about costs! We're talking about profits! I said it was not ethical to make profits in such an industry and you keep saying that R&D is part of the profits when it obviously is not!

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They are meeting a "need" are they not? The laws of supply and demand still exist. They are not somehow circumventing basic principles of economics.

Wriggle wriggle

They are making a profit off that need. Without that profit the products would be cheaper

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Take it how you want. I'm just pointing it out.

Your right wing pro-corporate views would indicate you hate democracy, just pointing that out...

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Originally posted by George Smiley We're not talking about costs! We're talking about profits! I said it was not ethical to make profits in such an industry and you keep saying that R&D is part of the profits when it obviously is not!

George, define profit. Profit is what is left after you subtract costs from sales. This was never a question of ethics. R&D is a part of profits in that is comes out of them (i.e. sales - expenses = profits). This is a simple issue that should've been resolved in a single post with no reply. I am seriously baffled at the level of your bullheaded lack of basic understanding of how a basic business model works. It simply defies logic.

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They are making a profit off that need. Without that profit the products would be cheaper

1) who doesn't make a profit by fulfilling a need? Need is what creates the opportunity for a business to exist! You could make the same argument for any industry. Transportation, food, computers, energy, etc. You are arguing that if the government ran everything, it would be cheaper (and somehow the quality would be as good if not better). Funny how you are so against profit, yet 2 posts ago you were talking about the government making money by nationalizing industries (i.e making a fucking PROFIT).

2) So you want every industry to be run as a non-profit. Who will invest in it? What assurances can you give that the quality and technology (among other aspects) will be as good as that provided for by private industry? I've seen the inside of many government buildings and seen bureaucracy in action. Frankly, I do not share your optimism that profitless business is somehow better.

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Your right wing pro-corporate views would indicate you hate democracy, just pointing that out...

How so?

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Originally posted by Shakka George, define profit. Profit is what is left after you subtract costs from sales. This was never a question of ethics. R&D is a part of profits in that is comes out of them (i.e. sales - expenses = profits). This is a simple issue that should've been resolved in a single post with no reply. I am seriously baffled at the level of your bullheaded lack of basic understanding of how a basic business model works. It simply defies logic.

This was ALWAYS a question of ethics if you go back and read my first post on the subject to which you have continued to reply to! You also seem to be suggesting that EVERYTHING is part of the profits?!

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1) who doesn't make a profit by fulfilling a need?

The police

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Need is what creates the opportunity for a business to exist!

Yes (to an extent)

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You could make the same argument for any industry. Transportation, food, computers, energy, etc.

I could but I don't because that would be wrong

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You are arguing that if the government ran everything, it would be cheaper (and somehow the quality would be as good if not better).

No I'm not arguing that

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Funny how you are so against profit, yet 2 posts ago you were talking about the government making money by nationalizing industries (i.e making a fucking PROFIT).

It depends what the profit is used for that makes it good or bad

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2) So you want every industry to be run as a non-profit.

If you want to make a valid point I suggest you stop putting words into people's mouths otherwise what you say is irrelevant and doesn't make you look particularly good

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Who will invest in it? What assurances can you give that the quality and technology (among other aspects) will be as good as that provided for by private industry? I've seen the inside of many government buildings and seen bureaucracy in action. Frankly, I do not share your optimism that profitless business is somehow better.

I don't share your opinion that women should not be able to vote

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Originally posted by George Smiley This was ALWAYS a question of ethics if you go back and read my first post on the subject to which you have continued to reply to! You also seem to be suggesting that EVERYTHING is part of the profits?!

You originally asked if it was ethical to make a profit in the pharmaceutical industry, not what constitutes a profit. However, you continue to argue that the definition of a profit is something that it isn't. This was NEVER a question of whether those profits were JUST (There is a whole other thread from a while back dealing with this), rather a question of how R&D factored into the bottom-line. You argued that somehow R&D is somehow not associated with profits. I argued (as if an argument is even necessary to state and restate a fact) that R&D are costs related to drug production and come out of COGS which therefore directly impacts profits. I will not address this anymore as you either get it or you are a complete moron. Sorry, George, with every post you align yourself more and more with the latter.

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The police

Suddenly we don't need police to protect us from crime and maintain order? Are you serious? If it's not a need then what the fuck is it?

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Yes (to an extent)

Glad you can at least see out of one eye.

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I could but I don't because that would be wrong

Again with the mountain of supporting evidence to back up your once again erroneous conclusion. Somewhat surprising given your response to the previous point. What industries (besides the police example which makes no sense) do not serve some sort of "need?" I'm genuinely curious. The best I could come up with would be entertainment, but I think you're going into shades of gray at best at that point. We all need entertainment in some way, shape or form.

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No I'm not arguing that

How is not not implicit in your previous response:

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They are making a profit off that need. Without that profit the products would be cheaper

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It depends what the profit is used for that makes it good or bad

Again with good profits and bad profits. I have only been talking about profit as a definition of sales minus costs. I said pharmaceutical companies use those profits to fund future business to come up with new and innovative drugs.

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If you want to make a valid point I suggest you stop putting words into people's mouths otherwise what you say is irrelevant and doesn't make you look particularly good

I suggest you stop acting like a retard.

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I don't share your opinion that women should not be able to vote

I suggest you stop acting like a retard. I don't even know where you are coming up with this shit. For the record, my wife voted today.

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Originally posted by Shakka You originally asked if it was ethical to make a profit in the pharmaceutical industry, not what constitutes a profit.

Yet here we are for some reason arguing over what constitutes a profit...

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This was NEVER a question of whether those profits were JUST

It was, you just said so above!

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You argued that somehow R&D is somehow not associated with profits. I argued (as if an argument is even necessary to state and restate a fact) that R&D are costs related to drug production and come out of COGS which therefore directly impacts profits.

I never said R&D doesn't affect profits, I said they were NOT profits. EVERY FUCKING THING A COMPANY DOES AFFECTS PROFITS

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I will not address this anymore as you either get it or you are a complete moron. Sorry, George, with every post you align yourself more and more with the latter.

Everytime I make a point you shift the goal posts in order to make an irrelevant point. In this case, I simply said it was not ethical to make a profit in the pharmaceutical industry and for some reason you've spent 5 pages arguing about how R&D is or isn't part of those profits (I don't even think you knwo what point your making any more)

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Suddenly we don't need police to protect us from crime and maintain order? Are you serious? If it's not a need then what the fuck is it?

And you have the nerve to call ME a moron after this reply?!

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Glad you can at least see out of one eye.

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Again with the mountain of supporting evidence to back up your once again erroneous conclusion. Somewhat surprising given your response to the previous point. What industries (besides the police example which makes no sense) do not serve some sort of "need?" I'm genuinely curious. The best I could come up with would be entertainment, but I think you're going into shades of gray at best at that point. We all need entertainment in some way, shape or form.

Are you fucking retarded or something? My "conclusion" was to agree with your point, so why do I need to answer further?

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How is not not implicit in your previous response:

Ah! The classic Shakka and his amazing moving goal post trick again! So you asked me a question about if the "government ran everything" and when I gave you your answer all of a sudden you decide the question was really about the pharmaceutical industry!!!

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Again with good profits and bad profits. I have only been talking about profit as a definition of sales minus costs. I said pharmaceutical companies use those profits to fund future business to come up with new and innovative drugs.

Quite clearly they don't and you've already proven they don't by showing how much shareholders receive from those profits

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I suggest you stop acting like a retard.

I'm sorry mate but you twisted every single point I make even when agreeing with you, so you tell me who's being a retard?

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I suggest you stop acting like a retard. I don't even know where you are coming up with this shit. For the record, my wife voted today.

The point, that you so amazingly missed, was not to invent opinions and try and impose them on other people so you can make a devious attack on them...

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Originally posted by George Smiley Yet here we are for some reason arguing over what constitutes a profit... It was, you just said so above! I never said R&D doesn't affect profits, I said they were NOT profits. EVERY FUCKING THING A COMPANY DOES AFFECTS PROFITS Everytime I make a point you shift the goal posts in order to make an irrelevant point. In this case, I simply said it was not ethical to make a profit in the pharmaceutical industry and for some reason you've spent 5 pages arguing about how R&D is or isn't part of those profits (I don't even think you knwo what point your making any more) And you have the nerve to call ME a moron after this reply?! Are you fucking retarded or something? My "conclusion" was to agree with your point, so why do I need to answer further? Ah! The classic Shakka and his amazing moving goal post trick again! So you asked me a question about if the "government ran everything" and when I gave you your answer all of a sudden you decide the question was really about the pharmaceutical industry!!! Quite clearly they don't and you've already proven they don't by showing how much shareholders receive from those profits I'm sorry mate but you twisted every single point I make even when agreeing with you, so you tell me who's being a retard? The point, that you so amazingly missed, was not to invent opinions and try and impose them on other people so you can make a devious attack on them...

fail.

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Originally posted by Shakka fail.

I'm sorry mate, you're a smart guy and all, but that is the most annoying meme in the history of the internet.

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Originally posted by Lebezniatnikov I'm sorry mate, you're a smart guy and all, but that is the most annoying meme in the history of the internet.

Agreed. Second only to George himself.

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Originally posted by Lebezniatnikov I'm sorry mate, you're a smart guy and all

Let's not get carried away with ourselves now shall we!

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Originally posted by George Smiley Let's not get carried away with ourselves now shall we!

Well, I didn't say he was right!

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Originally posted by Lebezniatnikov Well, I didn't say he was right!

Rather, you didn't say you agreed with me. Ethical or not, good or bad, a profit is still a profit. I can't believe this madness continues.

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Originally posted by Shakka Rather, you didn't say you agreed with me. Ethical or not, good or bad, a profit is still a profit.

EXACTLY what I've been trying to tell you, finally you come round!

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I can't believe this madness continues.

Unfortunately I can