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Originally posted by Psy-T i didn't mean my initial post on this to be a cohesive, consistent whole. rather ten individual arguments with little relation to each other.

My bad, then.

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Originally posted by Psy-T let's nitpick then, shall we? it wastes your time. time that could be spent doing something 'moral'.

Well, you could be doing something immoral as well, so this is keeping you from being wicked, don't you think?

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Originally posted by Psy-T yet on one extreme, it leads to immoral actions.

Doesn't that happen to most ideas?

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Originally posted by Psy-T i'm not in any rush to agree with Wittengstein's argument, nor to automatically agree that a public language is a prerequirement for philosophy. what makes it so in your opinion? if you want to debate the private language argument, present your interpretation.

Fair enough.

No person, on its own, has ever managed to acquire language. Feral children, for example, even after being reintegrated in society, struggle to utter the most basic sentences. Why is that?

First of all, if there's no reason for you to speak, it's very unlikely that you will speak at all. There's no one for you to interact with anyway, and it's not probable that you will develop a refined sense of self if there's no "other" to even consider talking to yourself.

Without language, how can you even intend to philosophise?

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quote:

Originally posted by Lira Well, you could be doing something immoral as well, so this is keeping you from being wicked, don't you think?

not after reading the ten commandments! that's what they're there for!
adding a superfluous rule to a morality guide lengthens the time it takes you to live a more moral life.

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Originally posted by Lira Doesn't that happen to most ideas?

maybe. still, shouldn't a guide to morality strive to be among the few in which that doesn't occur?

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Originally posted by Lira No person, on its own, has ever managed to acquire language. Feral children, for example, even after being reintegrated in society, struggle to utter the most basic sentences. Why is that?

i disagree unless you limit your definition of languages to the spoken languages only. we can understand when a feral child is in distress/pleased/etc based on their body language.

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Originally posted by Lira First of all, if there's no reason for you to speak, it's very unlikely that you will speak at all. There's no one for you to interact with anyway,

i agree.

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Originally posted by Lira and it's not probable that you will develop a refined sense of self if there's no "other" to even consider talking to yourself.

why do you believe so?

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Originally posted by Lira Without language, how can you even intend to philosophise?

do you not believe we generally have an innate desire to make sense of the world around us? i claim that it's that desire which forms our intent to philosophize.

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quote:

Originally posted by Psy-T not after reading the ten commandments! that's what they're there for! adding a superfluous rule to a morality guide lengthens the time it takes you to live a more moral life.

But it does

And, I don't think being practical was among their top priorities

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Originally posted by Psy-T maybe. still, shouldn't a guide to morality strive to be among the few in which that doesn't occur?

Is that even possible? Aren't all ideas prone to distortion at some level?

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Originally posted by Psy-T i disagree unless you limit your definition of languages to the spoken languages only. we can understand when a feral child is in distress/pleased/etc based on their body language.

But body language can only go so far, reason why even deaf people have to resort to a highly sophisticated system of signs to communicate. Otherwise, it would be just like a dog. He can ask for attention, and may even 'tell' you to back off, but "no matter how eloquently a dog may bark, he cannot tell you that his parents were poor but honest"; let alone philosophise.

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Originally posted by Psy-T why do you believe so?

Because knowledge does not come from within. We may be given the tools to make sense of the world around us, but without a world of experience to trigger them, these tools are useless.

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Originally posted by Psy-T do you not believe we generally have an innate desire to make sense of the world around us? i claim that it's that desire which forms our intent to philosophize.

No, I don't think it is innate. I think it arises from an engagement with the world, reason why you can't even think of a problem that isn't somehow related to the world we live in.

For example, ever since humans left Africa, different groups have undergone different kinds of genetic mutation. Most people that left the continent have fair skin, some people headed Eastwards and their eyes became slantier, while some people went West and their eye colour as well as their hair colour also changed. Had these changes not happened, and we remained uniform after that possible populational bottleneck in pre-history, could we ever think of race and racism? We'd all be black, after all.

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quote:

Originally posted by Lira Is that even possible? Aren't all ideas prone to distortion at some level?

perhaps. let's take free speech for example - if it is meant to be absolute, how is it prone to distortion?

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Originally posted by Lira But body language can only go so far, reason why even deaf people have to resort to a highly sophisticated system of signs to communicate. Otherwise, it would be just like a dog. He can ask for attention, and may even 'tell' you to back off, but "no matter how eloquently a dog may bark, he cannot tell you that his parents were poor but honest"; let alone philosophise.

different languages have varying levels of expressive potential on different things, those differences don't make one less of a language than another though. as for the dog-like point, if i remember correctly, dogs communicate far more with scents than they do with vocalizations.

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Originally posted by Lira Because knowledge does not come from within. We may be given the tools to make sense of the world around us, but without a world of experience to trigger them, these tools are useless.

there's plenty without for the knowledge to come from; if other people were the only source of knowledge, we'd have no knowledge at all. the world around us, regardless of whether it contains people or their products is full of experiences to trigger those tools.

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Originally posted by Lira No, I don't think it is innate. I think it arises from an engagement with the world, reason why you can't even think of a problem that isn't somehow related to the world we live in. For example, ever since humans left Africa, different groups have undergone different kinds of genetic mutation. Most people that left the continent have fair skin, some people headed Eastwards and their eyes became slantier, while some people went West and their eye colour as well as their hair colour also changed. Had these changes not happened, and we remained uniform after that possible populational bottleneck in pre-history, could we ever think of race and racism? We'd all be black, after all.

we could've easily made an analogy (to 'race') from seeing the variance in other species, i'd say.

also, have we ever seen an omnipotent flying spaghetti monster? how about intelligent extra terrestrial beings? were they green humanoid beings btw?

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lol @ slantier

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