quote:

Originally posted by floyd741 This is about creationism vs. evolution but... The concept of religion is absolutely absurd. Those who devote their lives to it are pathetic in the worst manner possible. just my two cents lol

You know, most days, I would completely agree, but if there is no God to cause or justify actions, then even a secular lifestyle is equally as worthless. Religion is simply an institution to focus all of that loose, tribal energy people have floating around, remnants of a time when religion was truly necessary to our prolonged survival - this is of course no longer the case, but some are much slower than others.

___________________
There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio,
Than are dreamt of in your philosophy.

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Originally posted by Halcyon+On+On You know, most days, I would completely agree, but if there is no God to cause or justify actions, then even a secular lifestyle is equally as worthless. Religion is simply an institution to focus all of that loose, tribal energy people have floating around, remnants of a time when religion was truly necessary to our prolonged survival - this is of course no longer the case, but some are much slower than others.

Totally, there really is no advantage in it but it just seems that I'd rather live life as an atheist than live life as a god-fearing crazy person. Seriously, some of these christians I know are ridiculuous. It just seems like a silly way to live.

Of course, not all theists are crazy. I know a few who try and make it a good thing and they aren't extremem or anything, they're very nice people. The amount of extremists kind of give the whole institution a bad reputation. One bad apple spoils the whole bunch, you know?

Sure seems true. But you also live in the bible belt... Americans seem to have an entirely different take on Jesus. It's truly an odd phenomenon, probably has something to do with too many guns and football, not enough sensible education.

I am with you though. The pursuit of pleasure is maybe the only point to our existing if you ask me - it's far more self-evident than any prohibitive God or Devil, not to mention a hell of a lot more fun. We're just animals, and one day you will cease to exist as you know yourself - this seems as inevitable as day and night to me, and it's why people's moral and social justifications shall probably always fall short of their reach.

___________________
There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio,
Than are dreamt of in your philosophy.

forget religion and targeting it. those few points i listed before are arguments that need to be resolved for evolutions purpose. This guy schroeder gives a good case, and i don't see any articles going against his stance. Although everything that is his idea is not referenced.

He gives points about evolution which there are unknowns and capitalizes on the arguments to say that there is an intelligent designer behind creation.

Yeah, but the ironic thing you can delight in is that he actually doesn't fucking know. lllololllol

___________________
There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio,
Than are dreamt of in your philosophy.

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Originally posted by Halcyon+On+On Yeah, but the ironic thing you can delight in is that he actually doesn't fucking know. lllololllol

the great thing about science is that there can always be objections to a theory based on inconclusive evidence and it can be tried and tested again. There are some unknowns (as far as i know) on evolution.

The argument of convergent evolution of the eyes is the best one in my opinion, i remember learning about it in science class.

Protostomes (insects) and deuterostomes (vertebrates) embryos form mouth first then anus and anus first then mouth respectively.

So any traits you observe that are similar between two organisms of the different groupings will be convergent. For example eyes on a bug and eyes of a human. you would expect the coding for the eyes would be on seperate parts of the genome but instead they are found in a similar location.

This is perhaps a phenomenon that isnt understood yet as to why the gene expression is at the same location.

Yes, and I am really fucking glad there are people like you out there to help us find out why, BECAUSE I AM PRETTY FUCKING SURE A COSMIC WIZARD DIDN'T DO IT.

___________________
There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio,
Than are dreamt of in your philosophy.

here is an overview of that article


it states that the common ancestor simply had the coding region but was not expressed.


http://genome.cshlp.org/content/14/8/1555.full

still raises a couple of questions as the common ancestor between protostomes and deuterostomes were very primitive

this would have to be all the way back to bilateria which diverges to proto and deuterostomes

these creatures are very very primitive almost liek ameobas lol


heres a hypotheses that this unknown last common ancester may have had eyes which were lost in its decendents but recovered again once the divergence of the two clades occured (proto and deutero)


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Urbilaterian#Eyes

quote:

Originally posted by Halcyon+On+On Yes, and I am really fucking glad there are people like you out there to help us find out why, BECAUSE I AM PRETTY FUCKING SURE A COSMIC WIZARD DIDN'T DO IT.

sure.. but again im not saying that a cosmic wizzard didnt do it. Im just saying that if HE did do it.. he did it through evolution. basically put things into motion lol.


This again is based on our preception of things. Evolution is the only logical explanation for the imperfection of organisms. (as we perceive it)

Last edited by Nrg2Nfinit on Sep-01-2009 at 16:49

Once more though, from where are you drawing your basis for perfection? Killfuckdierepeat *is* as perfect as it gets - we've never known anything else. Yes, when we apply a close enough eye, things get all sorts of tangled and complex, but it is only our understanding that is imperfect - some ideas being more imperfect than others.

Ancestral convergence is really damned interesting though... makes you wonder just what is latent in human beings, what still lies utterly undiscovered yet right in front of our eyes.

(//damned disclaimer edit!)

___________________
There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio,
Than are dreamt of in your philosophy.

quote:

Originally posted by Halcyon+On+On Once more though, from where are you drawing your basis for perfection? Killfuckdierepeat *is* as perfect as it gets - we've never known anything else. Yes, when we apply a close enough eye, things get all sorts of tangled and complex, but it is only our understanding that is imperfect - some ideas being more imperfect than others. Ancestral convergence is really damned interesting though... makes you wonder just what is latent in human beings, what still lies utterly undiscovered yet right in front of our eyes. (//damned disclaimer edit!)

when i say imperfect i mean organisms that are not perfectly suited for their environment.

sure whales are strealined creatures but shit, they have lungs and have to breath oxygen from air. Why the hell are sloths so slow?
etc etc etc.

this is what i mean about imperfection. you think a creator or intelligent designer would not oversee these facts.