quote:

Originally posted by PETRAN This thread is made every year or so with the same tracks posted over and over again, although with a progressive shift (i think) towards the more melodic/epic stuff (leading to the fact hat classic trance is ultimately forgotten? Possibly) And lets not forget some classic trance names like Resistance D, Microbots, Cybordelics, Cygnus-X and Brainchild, Pete Namlook projects and genrally all the Harthouse, MFS, Office records, Eye-Q, Superstition stuff bla bla bla Now what you are saying about "real trance" dying has been said countless times before in this forum and it is to a certain extend true. "Classic Trance" is surely dead, meaning that the style of those tracks is not made nowadays. But genres are not steady and rigid entities but abstract concepts and memes that dynamically change. Trance has changed from the "classic" german sound to "epic", "melodic", "euphoric", "uplifting"-call it what you want- in the same way that rock'n'roll and elvis has changed to rolling stones, to pink floyd, to joy division,to nirvana, to my bloody valentine, to sigur ros to countless completely different things which come under the "rock" umbrella, some completely different and contrasting to what "real" rock'n'roll was all about. In trance, some guys were paying more attention to the melodic/arpeggio aspect. Further "euroish" and "brit-prog" influences were progressively making the sound more melodic, leading to the sound that we call "epic" or "uplifting" trance today. The end-result is very different from the "classic german stuff", but it is still a type of trance music since it partly developed from that early genre. No one would say that the dramatic and slow shoegaze rock (in which music is made through heavy wall-of-sound type distortions) is in any way related (musically ad conceptually) to early rhythmical "feel-good" rock'n'roll. But no one would also argue that shoegaze-rock is not "true" rock". It is not the classic rock'' roll-sure- but it is a type of rock music since the general consensus has agreed on that as the rock influences were evolving through-out the years. So i wouldn't say that modern "epic" stuff is not "real" trance, it is just not "classic trance". Its s different sub-genre that evolved form that early now-dead genre. Like Miles Davis "cool jazz" which is not very similar to early "swing-jazz" and countless other examples. It happens in music all the time.

Exactly what I'm trying to say, just you're better in that. Totally agree with the rock example too.
(Didn't recognize you at first because of you new avatar

Think the subject needs to be repeated otherwise people really are going to believe it.

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quote:

Originally posted by identity7 Oliver Lieb hated on Robert Miles since '96 when he released Children and called it the new pop-format that killed trance (knowing how many people jumped on the bandwagon cloning Miles there is some truth to that). You can find that in nearly every interview of his since 96.

That he hated Miles again doesn't make it not trance at all.

quote:

And yeah Ferry was only called trance due to marketing - in the exactly same way why Miles (before he quit), Tiesto, Armin and what they spin now is called trance. It's a big commercial name, it's cool, people like what's cool and they of course don't understand what is trance so it's win-win.

Trance wasn't even that popular when Tiesto and Ferry started. Marketing as we now know it IMO again came later.

quote:

In terms of sound the development ended long long ago. In terms of accessibility - of course it became better. With side-effects that we can see now.

No, there is more then just sound. PC's could steer synthesizers in a way which was very difficult to do manually. Then also the number of simultaneous tracks increased to a level there wasn't demand for more.

quote:

It's being made and there is more, but it's just a very small fraction of how it should be.

It was a small fraction back then too.

quote:

Of course it shouldn't blow you away. Trance is not about standing in the club putting hands up in the air for 5 minutes during long boring breakdowns. Date has nothing to do with it, trance is just a different music from what you may like.

I meant "blow me away" like that's one of the best ever or e.g. top200. Has nothing to do with hands in the air.

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quote:

Originally posted by PETRAN Now what you are saying about "real trance" dying has been said countless times before in this forum and it is to a certain extend true.

(not quoting the whole thing as it is unnecessary)

I disagree with what you said about new trance still being real trance (I hope I understood what you were saying correctly). I believe that what is being release now is not trance for one simple reason: it is not entrancing. Trance should be entrancing. I can listen to some classic trance and be entranced because that's the way it's made, it's repetitive in a way that becomes hypnotic. Newer trance is only really exciting (if even that) during the breakdown or the anthem, the rest is just DJ friendly filler. The music being called trance now just doesn't achieve the goal of being entrancing therefore it is not real trance.

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[QUOTE]Originally posted by Trance-MB
That he hated Miles again doesn't make it not trance at all. /QUOTE]

No, it doesn't make it not trance. The fact that it wasn't trance makes it not trance.

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quote:

Originally posted by Lews No, it doesn't make it not trance. The fact that it wasn't trance makes it not trance.

Begging the question fallacy. Sorry man, but you're really bad at this. Besides, Children was originally signed to Platipus which should give it back what old-school cred Lieb took away.

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Last edited by SYSTEM-J on Jan-12-2010 at 00:33

Technically Platipus licensed it from DBX Records

Which is my way of totally ignoring the fact that, yes, I do fail completely at logical fallacies

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Fair enough. The point is that a trance label most people on this forum jizz all over signed it, pressed it as a single and used it on their compilations. Before it became a multi-platinum major hit, this track was accepted by most of the trance community.

To be perfectly honest, the only reason Children is seen as the desecrator of all that is trance is because it was so popular. There were trance records with catchy hooks before Children, and there were even tracks which had what Children didn't: monstrous breakdowns and huge build-ups. Children is really just a softer and more emotional Italian replica of what German trance had been playing around with for years. I don't see why, say Kid Paul's version of Café Del Mar is any more hypnotic, any less tuneful or any less "accessible" than Children.

Children may or may not be crap. That's a seperate issue to whether it's "real trance" and whether it deserves the scapegoating it gets.

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> DI.FM 26th Anniversary Guest Mix [Progressive House]
> Live @ Dance:Love:Hub London, 11.10.2025
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> Dance:Love:Hub Afterparty (The Return) 23.11.24

Like these sets? Come see me play live at Kibosh in Manchester: https://www.instagram.com/kibosh.mcr/

I never felt Children being a bad track. It's a decent track. It sure as hell doesn't deserve all the bashing it gets.

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Hey, I'm not saying I like it. I'm not saying I don't like Gouryella either. I just wouldn't put it into the same category as Octopus or Red Herring, other tracks on Vol. 2.

I don't know, I get all of these various genres confused, myself

Listening to Children and now Kid Paul's mix, however, and Café Del Mar sounds a lot less accessible (to me). It's a lot harder and has those synthesizers. I suck at describing songs, bleh.

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quote:

Originally posted by PETRAN Now what you are saying about "real trance" dying has been said countless times before in this forum and it is to a certain extend true. "Classic Trance" is surely dead, meaning that the style of those tracks is not made nowadays. But genres are not steady and rigid entities but abstract concepts and memes that dynamically change. Trance has changed from the "classic" german sound to "epic", "melodic", "euphoric", "uplifting"-call it what you want- in the same way that rock'n'roll and elvis has changed to rolling stones, to pink floyd, to joy division,to nirvana, to my bloody valentine, to sigur ros to countless completely different things which come under the "rock" umbrella, some completely different and contrasting to what "real" rock'n'roll was all about. In trance, some guys were paying more attention to the melodic/arpeggio aspect. Further "euroish" and "brit-prog" influences were progressively making the sound more melodic, leading to the sound that we call "epic" or "uplifting" trance today. The end-result is very different from the "classic german stuff", but it is still a type of trance music since it partly developed from that early genre. No one would say that the dramatic and slow shoegaze rock (in which music is made through heavy wall-of-sound type distortions) is in any way related (musically ad conceptually) to early rhythmical "feel-good" rock'n'roll. But no one would also argue that shoegaze-rock is not "true" rock". It is not the classic rock'' roll-sure- but it is a type of rock music since the general consensus has agreed on that as the rock influences were evolving through-out the years. So i wouldn't say that modern "epic" stuff is not "real" trance, it is just not "classic trance". Its s different sub-genre that evolved form that early now-dead genre. Like Miles Davis "cool jazz" which is not very similar to early "swing-jazz" and countless other examples. It happens in music all the time.

Your post would make sense if you didn't forget about Euro-pop/Euro-dance which "developed" from stuff like Modern Talking, Captain Jack, Sequential One, Mr. President, Two Unlimited before trance even became known and a common word to describe the undeground genre.

Case in point:
Trance: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Uz1J4BpXb8
Euro-dance: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FA39yqwnX98
"uplifting trance": http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8MZmPoPvJYE&feature=fvst

Now tell me which of those three have the most in common?
Just because they have 4/4 beat and are electronic doesn't make them the same.

So your post makes no sense. And what does rock which was always mainstream and followed formulas for crowds have to do with anything?

Last edited by identity7 on Jan-12-2010 at 09:12

quote:

Originally posted by Trance-MB That he hated Miles again doesn't make it not trance at all.

Of course. Children having nothing in common with trance is what makes it not trance. I remember when it came out noone was calling it trance, even the beacon of commercialization - MTV - was calling it "dream house". I'm pretty sure the term sounds familiar.

You asked which of trance artists of that time didn't consider it trance - you got your answer. Whether it was trance or not wasn't the point in that very part of reply.

quote:

Trance wasn't even that popular when Tiesto and Ferry started. Marketing as we now know it IMO again came later.

Marketing was always there. Oh and trance was popular enough, it just wasn't mainstream. Tiesto and Ferry weren't pioneers of commercial stuff as it already was there, they were just talented businessmen that started the whole "trance"-pop-star trend by spinning only the most popular stuff. But at first Tiesto at least (Ferry wasn't that much of a DJ) did spin trance so the name stuck to him. What Tiesto spins now can't be called trance at all no matter which excuses one may find - yet people still call it trance.

quote:

No, there is more then just sound. PC's could steer synthesizers in a way which was very difficult to do manually.

PCs could steer synthesizers in the very beginning of '90s just fine. That's nothing new.

quote:

Then also the number of simultaneous tracks increased to a level there wasn't demand for more.

The number of simultaneous tracks was never limited. You just plug in 10 VSTs now instead of plugging in 10 synths. Which explains the large number of synths in studios at the time and in a way it was a very good thing for music because equipment of that time all had unique sound due to different hardware elements starting with transistors and ending with DSPs which all had different architecture and this of course affected sound very hard.
Of course it was expensive - but again it was a plus because it was a great filter for "bedroom musicians" who turned electronic music into a repetitive garbage it is now.

quote:

I meant "blow me away" like that's one of the best ever or e.g. top200. Has nothing to do with hands in the air.

No what I mean is that if anyone's preferences are more with pop stuff like what Armin/Tiesto/A&B/Ferry/etc spin trance shouldn't blow away because it's very different.

quote:

Originally posted by SYSTEM-J Begging the question fallacy. Sorry man, but you're really bad at this. Besides, Children was originally signed to Platipus which should give it back what old-school cred Lieb took away.

So just because it was released by Platypus makes in Trance?
Even Eye-Q released a -rap- album in its time.

@Rebel9:
Children is a good tune, in fact I like quite a number of stuff of Miles. But it just isn't trance.

The fact is also that alot of the so called trance of today got more in common with pop music than it's original trance. So using the term "pop trance" is perfectly legitimate.

Some examples:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G7qEivYkgZM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eyUfJVqMtO0

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