quote:

Originally posted by Kysora I knew someone was going to say this. I've never been into making music for money, and quite honestly I don't think any producers should. It's a bad mentality and trying to put out tracks to make a profit inevitably leads to manufactured, boring music. I know this isn't what this argument is focused on but either way, I really don't think producers should be in the modern EDM scene looking to make a living. And if they think they can, they can't look at piracy as just an obstacle getting in their way from rags to riches. People who pirate music do it just because it's become so widespread nobody really puts any thought into it. They don't think "hey I'm going to go steal some music because I don't feel like paying for anything I can get for free", they think "hey this album looks neat, I'm going to check it out" and they do so through their most convenient method: piracy. Instead of sending the message that those illegal downloaders are immoral scumbags robbing people of their hard-earned work, artists/labels should make an attempt to let those downloaders know they appreciate the effort they took to discover what they have to offer, and if they enjoyed what they heard, they should throw a donation at the artist or purchase the album. That's the only way you can "beat" piracy: by acknowledging it's not a bad thing and the people that are doing it are more than likely willing to throw some money at the artists they like out of support. Benn Jordan demonstrated that nicely enough.

So if you spent 6 months working on a track and made an amazing quality production you'd be perfectly happy with people STEALING your work and using it as if they bought it?

That's my whole point is that people don't put the effort needed to make epic tracks because it is simply not worth it. The only people who will make money in that type of an economic climate is the people that do it because they love to make tracks. Unfortunately the people that have put in the 30000 hours instead of 10000 and have superior knowledge and ability are forced out and put out very few releases or move on entirely.

Want an example?

Alex Stealthy.

The only people that have superior ability have it because of confidence and the fact they love to learn and don't see the time put into the art as work but love. They know this dedication turns into monetary gain in most industries economic climates. The problem is when you see yourself not being rewarded properly for your superior works, you have to move on to another living. The people that are the best at anything all share this mindset and that is why they so easily move on to something in which they can actually make a comfortable living doing. Unfortunately in the world we live today MOST people are unable to do what they love as they have to sacrifice for what will pay the bills.

Most of you will not understand this concept because it doesn't apply to you.

Last edited by mfitterer1 on Mar-28-2010 at 23:59

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Originally posted by mfitterer1 First of all; software is much different than edm tracks. How can you even think about comparing them? Are you and others in the software industry pirating your mates work? I didn't think so.

No shit. Like I said, software costs many, many times the amount of money to produce and distribute that music does, margins are much tighter, and somehow, the industry manages to survive despite "piracy."

quote:

Second of all your boy stated my point clear as can be. "People are buying 2k pc's and 50/month for net access (so they have money) yet they aren't willing to put out 75-80 dollars for a fucking game (or whatever it costs)??????? You realize people will allocate their money to other sources that they can't pirate and get the things they can pirate for free right?

Did you even listen to anything he said? It's not about "allocation." It's about providing a product and service that make people willing to pay the price you ask. People "pirate" because either (a) they don't believe in paying for anything at all, in which case you just lost $0, or (b) because they don't believe that you're providing them sufficient value for the price, in which case you are the problem.

quote:

Originally posted by mfitterer1 The problem is when you see yourself not being rewarded properly for your superior works

The only problem I see here is hubris. The marketplace is the ultimate arbiter of superiority. And I agree; if the marketplace isn't showing an interest, then move on to some place where your talents are more appreciated, but don't blame piracy, it's a red herring.

___________________
My party schedule:
2009-02-21 - DJ Attention @ I'm So Popular
2009-06-18 - DJ Annoying @ People Need To Know Where I'll Be
2012-11-32 - DJ Insufferable ɸ Or At Least the Stalkers I Complain About
2048-06-66 - Spastic & Whocares ¶ Although I'm Actually Flattered
9999-45-81 - Tweaker Gimp ☼ I Probably Won't Even Go To This But I Have To Make Sure I Fill Up All The Available Space Here

quote:

Originally posted by cronodevir You want them to ask for money instead of demand it?

From the people who are blatantly ignoring the demands, sure. If demanding worked we wouldn't be having this little debate, I'm not sure why you're reducing my post because I'm offering an alternative that's not "make more useless technological barriers to piracy that will fail the same way all the other ones already have"

quote:

Originally posted by mfitterer1 So if you spent 6 months working on a track and made an amazing quality production you'd be perfectly happy with people STEALING your work and using it as if they bought it?

Uhh, yeah, because I'm quite sure if I spent 6 months working on that track, I'd spend it thinking "God I hope this gets circulated". It's what I think now, even though I know I really don't have the means yet. But it's still an aspiration.

Maybe on a professional level it doesn't apply, maybe it's because I don't have real industry experience, but I can't imagine making music and prioritizing the profits from each song over the number of people I can expose my craft to. Music is a hobby to me, and it's most fulfilling when other people can take part in it and enjoy what I do. If that can be accomplished through pirating, at the end of the day (or the six months) it'd be completely worth it. Even if it means having to get a day job to get by, it might eat up some of my time but that's no reason to give it up.

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Originally posted by DigiNut No shit. Like I said, software costs many, many times the amount of money to produce and distribute that music does, margins are much tighter, and somehow, the industry manages to survive despite "piracy."

Exactly my point. The software if we're speaking of computer games provides many times over. You pay once for it and it provides entertainment many times over. The depth and interaction of a computer game makes them much more valuable to a consumer. Music on the other hand is disposable. It is objective and it means more to some than it does to others. Because music doesn't provide the entertainment value that computer games do; why would someone pay for it if they could get it for free? On top of that the marketing big name dj's do creates an atmosphere where the fans think that the music is made by the dj's who spin it.

quote:

Originally posted by DigiNut Did you even listen to anything he said? It's not about "allocation." It's about providing a product and service that make people willing to pay the price you ask. People "pirate" because either (a) they don't believe in paying for anything at all, in which case you just lost $0, or (b) because they don't believe that you're providing them sufficient value for the price, in which case you are the problem.

The difference is video games are much more than music. A standard consumer will think that because a track is $2 that a) it can't be that hard to make and b) the artist won't miss their sale that much. And I fully believe people pirate because they don't have the money or aren't stand up enough to be legit and pay for something they can get for free.

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Originally posted by Kysora From the people who are blatantly ignoring the demands, sure. If demanding worked we wouldn't be having this little debate, I'm not sure why you're reducing my post because I'm offering an alternative that's not "make more useless technological barriers to piracy that will fail the same way all the other ones already have"

Lmao; people don't care if you ask them or have a firm price on any type of product or service. If they can get it for free they will not pay. The government is the problem here as they have basically admitted the problem is too big to contain and it has created an atmosphere where anything is fair game to steal if it's available. It's hardly even looked down upon anymore. It's truly sad.

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Originally posted by Kysora Uhh, yeah, because I'm quite sure if I spent 6 months working on that track, I'd spend it thinking "God I hope this gets circulated". It's what I think now, even though I know I really don't have the means yet. But it's still an aspiration. Maybe on a professional level it doesn't apply, maybe it's because I don't have real industry experience, but I can't imagine making music and prioritizing the profits from each song over the number of people I can expose my craft to. Music is a hobby to me, and it's most fulfilling when other people can take part in it and enjoy what I do. If that can be accomplished through pirating, at the end of the day (or the six months) it'd be completely worth it. Even if it means having to get a day job to get by, it might eat up some of my time but that's no reason to give it up.

"You're quite sure"? Meaning you have no clue and are speaking on a hypothetical. You will probably never get to that point because you don't have the confidence or drive to accomplish getting to that level.

I am not speaking about prioritizing profits. I am talking about the fact that there is so much work that goes into making a superior production that making 20 bucks for it is obviously not worth it. It doesn't mean that people stop producing because as stated if you're that good you have to love it. Go back to the Alex Stealthy example and understand that if he were making what his talent commanded in market share he would be putting out many more great works.

http://forums.di.fm/world-of-music/...-career-101290/

Back in the day someone like Alex i'm sure made quite a good amount of money doing what he loves and doing it better than most others. He was probably 5 years ahead of his peers in production quality and his dark progressive style has yet to be matched or duplicated (even his tracks from early in the 2000's).

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Originally posted by mfitterer1 Lmao; people don't care if you ask them or have a firm price on any type of product or service. If they can get it for free they will not pay.

Did you even read that article about Benn Jordan that I posted?

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"You're quite sure"? Meaning you have no clue and are speaking on a hypothetical. You will probably never get to that point because you don't have the confidence or drive to accomplish getting to that level.

It's honestly frightening to me that you're speaking in such extremes about how musicians will refuse to carry on if they don't make money off of it. I am not in this to make money, does that make me any less dedicated to my music than someone who is?

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I am not speaking about prioritizing profits. I am talking about the fact that there is so much work that goes into making a superior production that making 20 bucks for it is obviously not worth it.

What defines "worth"? If I make a "superior production", that would be enough for me, I wouldn't be upset over it because it didn't sell like mad. If people still pirated it I'd know my music was being listened to, which is why I'm in this to begin with.

Maybe I'm an odd example but I would honestly never see a dime for my music but still be a well known artist than never once have someone download my tracks and suffer an audience for the same reason. For producers who depend on sales to eat, I can see why this would all be a problem. And while I can both see how and acknowledge that some people might care about market shares and profits and be anti-piracy for all of those reasons, I'm not.

I'd rather see my music get pirated from an audience than never once have my music be in the hands of someone who didn't give me money for it, and suffer a fanbase for it.

I should probably clarify I'm not speaking universally when I talk about myself, I simply said I wish people pirated my music, just because I don't rely on my music for anything. It's a hobby, a passion, and I'm never going to let money get in the way of that.

If I thought the quality of my tracks were so amazing, why not gain the biggest audience possible by giving the okay for people to download it free? The only thing that makes music "worth it" in the end is the feeling of making something great that you believe in, and having other people love it, too. All the other stuff is a distant second. If I ever made it to the point where thousands of people wanted to have my music, why would I not simply be happy, rather than scolding fans for being a bit cheap and downloading it on torrents?

Yeah, yeah, I know you'll say, "It's easy to act all virtuous when you're some nobody!"

But I think people who stop making music altogether because they see no money in it can fuck right off. A person who has passion for music will make tunes on a broken old guitar for a couple hours each week if that's all the time and money he can spare. Not bitch about filesharing, take his toys and leave the sandbox crying like a four year old if it no longer pays.

quote:

Originally posted by mfitterer1 Exactly my point. The software if we're speaking of computer games provides many times over. You pay once for it and it provides entertainment many times over. The depth and interaction of a computer game makes them much more valuable to a consumer. Music on the other hand is disposable. It is objective and it means more to some than it does to others. Because music doesn't provide the entertainment value that computer games do; why would someone pay for it if they could get it for free?

So your argument here seems to be that music is worthless. That doesn't hold water either. How then do you explain the exponential growth of the iTunes store and other online distributors?

And let's hypothetically say that it were true - that music has no value, that it is intrinsically disposable. Then why should people pay for it? Wouldn't that make it nonsensical to expect any money whatsoever for track/record sales?

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On top of that the marketing big name dj's do creates an atmosphere where the fans think that the music is made by the dj's who spin it.

Irrelevant. DJs pay for the music they play. Unless you're suggesting that DJs pay some kind of broadcast fees (in which case, be prepared to lose all your business very fast), that's just the way it is. Most pop stars don't produce their own music either and many of them don't even sing, yet they get the credit. That's the biz for ya.

quote:

The difference is video games are much more than music. A standard consumer will think that because a track is $2 that a) it can't be that hard to make and b) the artist won't miss their sale that much.

So now you're saying that a high price creates a perception of value and low price creates a perception of fluff? This, again, does not stand up to evidence - far more people are buying $2 tracks online today than there were buying $20 albums a few years ago.

And then there's the iPhone App Store's infamous race to the bottom, all of those crummy little 99 cent apps lowering the bar for serious developers. A lot of these apps really are crap in a truly objective sense, but people buy these, mainly because it's so cheap that it's below their "oh, what the hell, why not" threshold. Tracks are in the same price range and consumers appear to demonstrate roughly the same behaviour.

Your statement also ignores the fact that piracy is every bit as rampant with games as it is with music; the whole point, which you still seem to be ignoring, is that the good game distributors find ways to use this in their favour instead of using it as an excuse.

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And I fully believe people pirate because they don't have the money or aren't stand up enough to be legit and pay for something they can get for free.

Spore was one of the most heavily-locked down games ever produced, and it was also the #1 most pirated game of 2008. It wasn't priced higher or lower than anything else on the market, but Maxis/EA did manage to piss a lot of people off with restrictions - and fans showed their disfavour by playing cracked versions of the game instead of buying it.

Your belief that people pirate because they don't have money is mistaken. These people who are downloading $2 tracks are doing it on a $1200 PC with a $40/month internet connection, and listening on their $400 iPods/iPhones which they upgrade religiously year after year - you really think they can't afford it?

Your assertion that they aren't "stand up enough to be legit" may be correct, but it's ultimately irrelevant, as those people do not represent lost sales! If that is truly the way they think/behave, crippling their ability to obtain the music for free will only result in them not listening to your music, which is throwing the baby out with the bathwater - giving up the publicity and brand loyalty it creates simply to shut a few fans out of their dirty habits.

___________________
My party schedule:
2009-02-21 - DJ Attention @ I'm So Popular
2009-06-18 - DJ Annoying @ People Need To Know Where I'll Be
2012-11-32 - DJ Insufferable ɸ Or At Least the Stalkers I Complain About
2048-06-66 - Spastic & Whocares ¶ Although I'm Actually Flattered
9999-45-81 - Tweaker Gimp ☼ I Probably Won't Even Go To This But I Have To Make Sure I Fill Up All The Available Space Here

Last edited by DigiNut on Mar-29-2010 at 02:45

Spore was cracked in like 30 minutes of being released too...

___________________
i'm the alchemist without the cyst without a doubt out of the mist
dig out the grout expose the pest to take it out without the rest

they will attest my patients restorations from the best

i'm from the west i'm not an acmeist only the alchemist

quote:

Originally posted by Kysora Did you even read that article about Benn Jordan that I posted?

Did you fail to see that almost the entirety of the income was made with preorders???? I've already admitted piracy is good from a marketing perspective for newer producers.

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Originally posted by Kysora It's honestly frightening to me that you're speaking in such extremes about how musicians will refuse to carry on if they don't make money off of it. I am not in this to make money, does that make me any less dedicated to my music than someone who is?

You're misquoting or misunderstanding me. I said musicians will be forced to cut down on work as they will have to pick up another job. It's one of those things you do full out all the time or you do ever so often kind of like when you dust the video game console out. The problem is the people who want to make music all the time are not able to accept doing it every so often. When you aim at the top in everything you do it's not acceptable for punk bitch cheapskates to relegate your work to a simple hobby.

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Originally posted by Kysora What defines "worth"? If I make a "superior production", that would be enough for me, I wouldn't be upset over it because it didn't sell like mad. If people still pirated it I'd know my music was being listened to, which is why I'm in this to begin with.

Agree wholeheartedly; but how many superior productions would you be able to continue to make knowing what you know about piracy and the way the edm industry works? You're taking the stance as a producer who has yet to be exposed; I'm speaking from the perspective of an experienced producer who has been there done that. I once held your viewpoint. And then I became experienced and that loses it's luster. When you make one great work you have to bring each new work to that level or you feel like you failed. When you're not seeing financial results (which in this case is of my own choice) it is very easy to feel a work is a failure because your prior one is perceived to be better. It becomes much more of a grind than a passion. You will see in time.

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Originally posted by MrJiveBoJingles If I thought the quality of my tracks were so amazing, why not gain the biggest audience possible by giving the okay for people to download it free? The only thing that makes music "worth it" in the end is the feeling of making something great that you believe in, and having other people love it, too. All the other stuff is a distant second. If I ever made it to the point where thousands of people wanted to have my music, why would I not simply be happy, rather than scolding fans for being a bit cheap and downloading it on torrents? Yeah, yeah, I know you'll say, "It's easy to act all virtuous when you're some nobody!" But I think people who stop making music altogether because they see no money in it can fuck right off. A person who has passion for music will make tunes on a broken old guitar for a couple hours each week if that's all the time and money he can spare. Not bitch about filesharing, take his toys and leave the sandbox crying like a four year old if it no longer pays.

Because you have a dayjob genius. You're not doing music full out. It's a hobby to you. You're afforded that luxury. And I seem to remember several times where you said you were hanging it up?

You & others fail to realize that music is very profitable if there weren't a bunch of asshats stealing the music that is supposed to be bought. I'd have no problem making music for free my entire life if the system was not being taken advantage of.

How would you be able to accept putting your heart and soul into something for a month for hours every night knowing that as soon as you release your work it will be stolen time and time again by people that will not think twice about it? It's extremely disheartening even thinking about it.