quote:

Originally posted by Miss Pie Parenting is measured by the outcomes of the child. A well-behaved, well-adjusted child with a high sense of self-esteem who respects his or herself and others is usually a strong indicator of good parenting. An ill-behaved, poorly adjusted child with low self-esteem who respects neither his or herself or others is usually a strong indicator of bad parenting. You're telling me that you can't tell the difference between a good and bad parent?

so its measured by the OUTCOME?

in that case its a hindsight judgement which would have no bearing on the act of parenting.

what does well-behaved and well-adjusted mean? is that like, have a job, a good wage?

I'm telling you its not as simple as labelling individual people, or couples, in individual situations as good or bad. all parents and all kids are different, all homes and schools are different: Don't you think its drastically minimising to claim there are good and bad parents, and parenting methods when there are no situations which are the same? don't you think its a bit more complicated than saying 'never hit your child', when all kids are going to handle different punishments, and different situations differently? Don't you think different crimes deserve different punishments?

and finally, for the 5th time: do kids have the same conscious capabilities as adults? should they receive the same, or different treatment as adults?

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quote:

Originally posted by Miss Pie So you think it's ok to abuse a person's basic human rights? Why do you think it's ok to hit children?

there is no consensus on human rights, what charter are you referring to?

if you're talking legally, the state has the ability to override individuals rights when they break the law.

extending this to a home, parents have the right to override a childs rights when they break the law.

if you're talking morally, there is no consensus at all, moral rights are created and passed on from parent to child: When moral rights are broken people must deal with the ramifications.

i've said a number of times: I think its something that is easily understood. If children do not have the same level of understanding as adults, whose to say they have the mental capability of understanding overly intricate punishment methods?? Especially if you include (as i have), the possibility of a parent who is not capable of maintaining the 100% succes rate of punishment for crimes commited by the child.

if they're bad, and you give them a light spank, they know they did wrong.
if they're bad and you don't go thru ur punishment method every single time (like wiener pointed out), the kid will never respect you, and think they can get away with anything.

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I don't think it's ok to hit anyone, for any reason, ever. Are you some kind of troglodyte?

quote:

Originally posted by EgosXII there is no consensus on human rights, what charter are you referring to?

The Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms, the UN Convention on the Rights of the Child.

i'm not terribly opposed to a light smack on the ass etc.. but i think it would be confusing for a young child. They learn to trust you, and then you hit them (even lightly) it kind of takes that trust away.. and that hurts them more mentally then physically. My parents tried to hit me too, and it didn't do anything but break a few kitchen utensils and turn my ass a rosy shade. The thing that got to me the most was my dad talking to me about things and explaining the consequences of poor choices.

i agree giving them a light smack here and there is definitely less harmless then empty threats, spoiling and no discipline. But that's pretty much the same conclusion i came to reading jenny's posts.

i do put all my needs second to my kids, it's a grueling task.. and really tiring but i know it will pay off. You can't turn the clock and fix the mistakes you made with your kids when they were young. I know i've done well.. my kids are proof.

If I could turn back time, I would be born into wiener's family. Coolest kids ever.

quote:

Originally posted by Lira Tell that, if they don't behave, William Ashley is going to lecture them about the importance of <insert random topic here>. Bonus points if you convince them Bill is Jesus.

if you can believe it, my brother is as big of a tool as william.. in fact, i'm still not convinced that they are not the same person..

quote:

Originally posted by Miss Pie I don't think it's ok to hit anyone, for any reason, ever. Are you some kind of troglodyte?

lol, no, have studied human rights, and have studied WHY they were created.

Hint: If people weren't naturally violent, we wouldn't need them!

stop idolizing humanity by pretending like we can escape our physicality, and escape violence: You did psych, heard of Freud??

I'm not endorsing violence. I'm telling you its a human thing. Trying to pretend like we're so much better than that at our core (children are core beings, since they don't have social norms imbedded in them yet which tells them violence is bad) is simply silly.

jesus jenny, in the last five posts i've asked you: Do kids and adults have the same level of consciousness?????????

quote:

Originally posted by wienerschnitzel i'm not terribly opposed to a light smack on the ass etc.. but i think it would be confusing for a young child. They learn to trust you, and then you hit them (even lightly) it kind of takes that trust away.. and that hurts them more mentally then physically. My parents tried to hit me too, and it didn't do anything but break a few kitchen utensils and turn my ass a rosy shade. The thing that got to me the most was my dad talking to me about things and explaining the consequences of poor choices. i agree giving them a light smack here and there is definitely less harmless then empty threats, spoiling and no discipline. But that's pretty much the same conclusion i came to reading jenny's posts. i do put all my needs second to my kids, it's a grueling task.. and really tiring but i know it will pay off. You can't turn the clock and fix the mistakes you made with your kids when they were young. I know i've done well.. my kids are proof.

i completely agree with you wiener: I don't encourage violence, but a light smack is not necessarily all bad, and its something that will definitely be understood by the kid.


also LOL, putting in your cute kids to try and emotionalise the argument

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quote:

Originally posted by wienerschnitzel if you can believe it, my brother is as big of a tool as william.. in fact, i'm still not convinced that they are not the same person..

That's even better, you don't need to go all the way to Ontario now! Give him a hut somewhere in the plains (preferably near a pond) and he'll probably live off bird drops and eventual stuff you give him when he comes over to lecture your kids! Who doesn't love their uncle!?

Bonus points if his name is Henry.

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You studied human rights, well I've studied child and family development, psychology, AND children's rights. Human rights are at the very core of what I do, lol.

From the UN Convention:

Article 19 (Protection from all forms of violence): Children have the right to be protected from being hurt and mistreated, physically or mentally. Governments should ensure that children are properly cared for and protect them from violence, abuse and neglect by their parents, or anyone else who looks after them. In terms of discipline, the Convention does not specify what forms of punishment parents should use. However any form of discipline involving violence is unacceptable. There are ways to discipline children that are effective in helping children learn about family and social expectations for their behaviour – ones that are non-violent, are appropriate to the child's level of development and take the best interests of the child into consideration. In most countries, laws already define what sorts of punishments are considered excessive or abusive. It is up to each government to review these laws in light of the Convention.




Your problem seems to be that you don't equate corporal punishment with abuse, when the fact is that ANY form of CP IS abuse.

Oh, I do agree with you that all CP is abuse.

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Any person who doesn't think these things are abuse has clearly got a few screws loose:

hitting, kicking, shaking or throwing, scratching, pinching, biting, pulling hair or boxing ears, forcing children to stay in uncomfortable positions, burning, scalding, or forced ingestion


All of those things are considered "reasonable force" in Canada's Criminal code in the section condoning corporal punishment. Are you fucking kidding me??? Lol