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Originally posted by XaNaX I think Hillary has really fucked herself here by dragging this out. Every day she remains in the race is another day that the divide between Clinton democrats and Obama democrats widens. I have heard from more than a few people that if their candidate doesn't win the nomination they will not vote at all in the election.

if that's true, those people are in the very small minority. if the party is so envigorated because of the mismanagement of the past, why would people not vote in the future?

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Originally posted by XaNaX Whoever her advisers are, they pointed her in the direction of the wrong choice

Just another reason my assertion that Mark Penn is a complete and utter douche is pretty much unrefutable.

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Originally posted by XaNaX Withdraw and endorse Obama, uniting democrats and allowing his campaign to focus on McCain.

What you're failing to realize is what the source of this big "divide" you are mentioning is. The 47% of people who have voted for Hillary are being pushed away further and further everytime an Obama supporter says she should step down (which in their view, is prematurely). I've said it several times and so have many other people, I don't see how uniting with Obama is necessarily the "democratic" thing to do or, "what's good for the party" according to you. Of course I can't prove this, but if the tables were turned and Obama were in Hillary's place, I don't think the supporters of this "hope" and "change" candidate would be like, "Well, we still have a chance of winning (though small), but the right thing for the party is to unite behind Hillary." The system that we have now was put in for a situation like this, and we should let it play out. I don't see any irrationality in this position, to be honest. I think her pulling out right now would make this "divide" you mentioned even wider, but we have differeng opinions and neither of us can prove them, so we'll see how it plays out!

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Originally posted by DJ Eco What you're failing to realize is what the source of this big "divide" you are mentioning is. The 47% of people who have voted for Hillary are being pushed away further and further everytime an Obama supporter says she should step down (which in their view, is prematurely). I've said it several times and so have many other people, I don't see how uniting with Obama is necessarily the "democratic" thing to do or, "what's good for the party" according to you. Of course I can't prove this, but if the tables were turned and Obama were in Hillary's place, I don't think the supporters of this "hope" and "change" candidate would be like, "Well, we still have a chance of winning (though small), but the right thing for the party is to unite behind Hillary." The system that we have now was put in for a situation like this, and we should let it play out. I don't see any irrationality in this position, to be honest. I think her pulling out right now would make this "divide" you mentioned even wider, but we have differeng opinions and neither of us can prove them, so we'll see how it plays out!

25% of the Democrats that don't like Obama think that he's a Muslim according to a stat in this week's Rolling Stone "Threat Assessment.

It's not the calls for the stepdown that are the problem as much as you might want to blame that.

___________________
"Go back to bed america your government is in control
Here's American Gladiators, here is 56 channels of it,
Watch these picturary retards bang their fuckin' skulls together and congratulate you on living in the land of freedom,
Here you go America you are free to do as we tell you
We want your soul
Your cash, your house, your phone, your cash, your house, your life" -Adam Freeland - We Want Your Soul

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Originally posted by Groundhog Boy 25% of the Democrats that don't like Obama think that he's a Muslim according to a stat in this week's Rolling Stone "Threat Assessment. It's not the calls for the stepdown that are the problem as much as you might want to blame that.

he didn't say anything about people not liking obama, he said that the constant calls for her to step down are not uniting the party. If people were telling you that your cause was useless, when there was still a small sliver of hope, wouldn't you be a little frustrated as well?

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Originally posted by jerZ07002 he didn't say anything about people not liking obama, he said that the constant calls for her to step down are not uniting the party. If people were telling you that your cause was useless, when there was still a small sliver of hope, wouldn't you be a little frustrated as well?

I'd be pissed that my choice was a mathematical impossibility. If my loyalties were more to the party, I'd choose to support the other member. If they weren't, I'd evaluate the other candidate to choose whether I'd support him/her.

I'm the latter and have evaluated the other candidate. There is no way I'm voting for Hillary Clinton, but at least it's not for stupid reasons like she's a terrorist or that she's a woman. It's because she's completely untrustworthy, pandering, manipulative of the uneducated and supports much more stringent censorship standards. Just look at her views on GTA in 2005 as an example. Didn't she also really support Tipper in the 90s on the music issues?

Obama takes more of a "persuade and entice you" approach into supporting many of his ideas, whereas Hillary takes a "lie, scare and impose" sort of approach.

___________________
"Go back to bed america your government is in control
Here's American Gladiators, here is 56 channels of it,
Watch these picturary retards bang their fuckin' skulls together and congratulate you on living in the land of freedom,
Here you go America you are free to do as we tell you
We want your soul
Your cash, your house, your phone, your cash, your house, your life" -Adam Freeland - We Want Your Soul

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Originally posted by DJ Eco Of course I can't prove this, but if the tables were turned and Obama were in Hillary's place, I don't think the supporters of this "hope" and "change" candidate would be like, "Well, we still have a chance of winning (though small), but the right thing for the party is to unite behind Hillary."

I'm 100% certain I would say "fuck, Obama lost - looks like I'm voting for Clinton in November."

Just as I said after the SC Primary: "Fuck, looks like Edwards lost. Guess I'll be voting for Obama on Feb. 5."

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Originally posted by Groundhog Boy I'd be pissed that my choice was a mathematical impossibility. If my loyalties were more to the party, I'd choose to support the other member. If they weren't, I'd evaluate the other candidate to choose whether I'd support him/her.

first, if anything, allegiance to political parties has proven to be a very bad thing for this country. i for one hold no allegiance to the democratic party. unfortunately, there are no better choices at the moment. i vote democrat by default.

second, hilary is not a mathematic impossibility, she's a mathematical improbability. more miraculous things have happened. As the inevitable becomes more evident, you will see the party come together. if people are truly that unhappy about the republican leadership of the past 8 years i wouldn't worry too much about damage at this point. I don't see how americans could be unhappy with that leadership and then turn their backs when they have the opportunity to make that change. i will be truly surprised and disappointed if that occurs.

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Originally posted by Groundhog Boy I'd be pissed that my choice was a mathematical impossibility.

Well, Obama and his people want to "play by the rules" and neither count Michigan or Florida nor get a revote. Fair enough, that's "playing by the rules." But as long as they're still this close, the superdelegates could go the other way. According to "the rules", the superdelegates are supposed to pledge their support at the Convention in August. Why change the rules now (Dean), and say that they're supposed to pledge their support asap? What happened to "playing by the rules?" I'll tell you what happened; Obama, like Hillary, will say and do anything to win.

For the record, there's not one intelligent and unbiased person who will tell you this is a mathematical impossibility. The fact that you added "mathematical" in there makes your point even more ironic and untrue. If it were impossible, Obama wouldn't have been fighting for Guam lol. Sorry man.

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Originally posted by Groundhog Boy 25% of the Democrats that don't like Obama think that he's a Muslim according to a stat in this week's Rolling Stone "Threat Assessment. It's not the calls for the stepdown that are the problem as much as you might want to blame that.

Even if that were true, which it isn't, isn't at the very least 25% of this country a bunch of ignorant idiots anyway (at LEAST)? What's so new about the elections now, now that Obama's involved? That's of course, if that 25% is accurate. But think about the wording and series of questions it took to finally get to that stat. First, they asked people who they voted for, then asked people who didn't vote for him if he liked him or not. That's already a fraction of a fraction, and I'm sure as the questions went on, another few fractions of a fraction until they could come up with a 25% figure that think he's Muslim. I don't think it's too far of a gamble to say 25% of people who don't like Hillary because she's a dyke. Add all of that on top of the idea that I think all polls are flawed, even the ones that came out this week saying Hillary would beat McCain while Obama would only tie him (if the elections were this week). I don't get what your point is.

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Originally posted by DJ Eco Well, Obama and his people want to "play by the rules" and neither count Michigan or Florida nor get a revote. Fair enough, that's "playing by the rules." But as long as they're still this close, the superdelegates could go the other way. According to "the rules", the superdelegates are supposed to pledge their support at the Convention in August. Why change the rules now (Dean), and say that they're supposed to pledge their support asap? What happened to "playing by the rules?" I'll tell you what happened; Obama, like Hillary, will say and do anything to win. For the record, there's not one intelligent and unbiased person who will tell you this is a mathematical impossibility. The fact that you added "mathematical" in there makes your point even more ironic and untrue. If it were impossible, Obama wouldn't have been fighting for Guam lol. Sorry man.

Lol, dude, you're bent on demonizing the Obama campaign. They never once said they don't want to see the Michigan and Florida delegates seated. That was the DNC.

I think Opus covered this pretty well earlier, but it was the Republicans in Michigan that blocked a re-vote, not either campaign. The campaigns do differ on how a re-vote should be conducted (Obama's campaign wants provisional ballots to count, Clinton simply wants polls opened for one day, etc.)

But don't mischaracterize the situation by saying the Obama campaign will say anything to keep those delegates unseated.

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Originally posted by DJ Eco Even if that were true, which it isn't, isn't at the very least 25% of this country a bunch of ignorant idiots anyway (at LEAST)? What's so new about the elections now, now that Obama's involved? That's of course, if that 25% is accurate. But think about the wording and series of questions it took to finally get to that stat. First, they asked people who they voted for, then asked people who didn't vote for him if he liked him or not. That's already a fraction of a fraction, and I'm sure as the questions went on, another few fractions of a fraction until they could come up with a 25% figure that think he's Muslim. I don't think it's too far of a gamble to say 25% of people who don't like Hillary because she's a dyke. Add all of that on top of the idea that I think all polls are flawed, even the ones that came out this week saying Hillary would beat McCain while Obama would only tie him (if the elections were this week). I don't get what your point is.

25% OF DEMOCRATS first of all (though the article says "white Democrats, so that does lower the number for this statistic). I did research and found that the figure is from Pew Research (which I'd argue is one of the more reputable polling organizations, though I'd entertain arguments to the contrary) - http://people-press.org/reports/dis...p3?ReportID=407

Here's the relevant paragraph:

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In particular, white Democrats who hold unfavorable views of Obama are much more likely than those who have favorable opinions of him to say that equal rights for minorities have been pushed too far; they also are more likely to disapprove of interracial dating, and are more concerned about the threat that immigrants may pose to American values. In addition, nearly a quarter of white Democrats (23%) who hold a negative view of Obama believe he is a Muslim.

Secondly, I do partially blame Hillary's campaign for this problem. She's had an entire campaign to set the record straight, but instead, she's the one out there saying "He's not a Muslim, AS FAR AS I KNOW." It's a prime example of how she'd throw her party under the bus if she thought she'd win. Add to that comment the fact that her campaign staffers were found to be circulating these bullshit stories (with access to campaign email lists of Democrats), and you've got yourself another fine example of why I won't vote for her.

With regard to your other post, Obama has not called for her to drop out. In fact, he's repeatedly said that she should stay as long as she wants. The difference is that his supporters don't necessarily agree with him on this topic.

Also, you pointed out that you disagree with the assertion that it's a mathematical impossibility. I asked last week for you to present a mathematical scenario that allows her to win, since we've seen so many showing how she can't. I'm still waiting for a response to that challenge.

___________________
"Go back to bed america your government is in control
Here's American Gladiators, here is 56 channels of it,
Watch these picturary retards bang their fuckin' skulls together and congratulate you on living in the land of freedom,
Here you go America you are free to do as we tell you
We want your soul
Your cash, your house, your phone, your cash, your house, your life" -Adam Freeland - We Want Your Soul