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Originally posted by hardcore trancer If thats the case then there is no end in site to end this occupation since Iraq will never be a "normal" country.I guess McCain was right when he said we'll be there for the next 100 years.

not exactly. just reducing violence isn't the answer. you have to transform the people. using my example, you wouldn't simply remove the cops after a reduction in violence. before leaving the area, the police would start a neighborhood watch, community education programs, after-school programs, etc... leaving simply because the symptoms have subsided isn't the correct answer.

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Originally posted by jerZ07002 not exactly. just reducing violence isn't the answer. you have to transform the people. using my example, you wouldn't simply remove the cops after a reduction in violence. before leaving the area, the police would start a neighborhood watch, community education programs, after-school programs, etc... leaving simply because the symptoms have subsided isn't the correct answer.

Which is what the Iraqi's need and want to do themselves. We are not their fucking sugar daddy.

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Originally posted by Krypton Which is what the Iraqi's need and want to do themselves. We are not their fucking sugar daddy.

unfortunately, i think we have a moral obligation to see that they actually have the means to go forth with that desire.

They just want us to leave. We help them by leaving their country.

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Originally posted by jerZ07002 unfortunately, i think we have a moral obligation to see that they actually have the means to go forth with that desire.

Tell that to this people...

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Originally posted by jerZ07002 unfortunately, i think we have a moral obligation to see that they actually have the means to go forth with that desire.

Was it your moral obligation to invade them from the begining?

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Originally posted by hardcore trancer Was it your moral obligation to invade them from the begining?

do you read previous posts? i'm definitely not a proponent of war, however, since we fucked up iraq, we need to see to it that it doesn't stay fucked up forever. at the least we need to ensure that the government is capable of dealing with the problems we left for them. just because they think they are ready doesn't necessarily mean they are ready. the iraqis clearly can't handle the situation themselves. the fact that government officials are abducted and murdered all the time is evidence of that fact.

that said, i'm not for any prolonged stay in iraq. anyone who has read my posts would know that much.

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Originally posted by jerZ07002 do you read previous posts? i'm definitely not a proponent of war, however, since we fucked up iraq, we need to see to it that it doesn't stay fucked up forever. at the least we need to ensure that the government is capable of dealing with the problems we left for them. just because they think they are ready doesn't necessarily mean they are ready. the iraqis clearly can't handle the situation themselves. the fact that government officials are abducted and murdered all the time is evidence of that fact. that said, i'm not for any prolonged stay in iraq. anyone who has read my posts would know that much.

You expect us to be able to fix their problems? Won't happen man. The best thing we can do for them is to completely leave the country.

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Originally posted by Krypton You expect us to be able to fix their problems? Won't happen man. The best thing we can do for them is to completely leave the country.

read more intently. i said at the least we need to ensure that the government is capable of dealing with the problems we left for them. that doesn't mean we need to fix their problems. your view of things is usually too black and white; fortunately, the truth is usually a shade of gray.

Here is the reality.Right now things might be calm but thats because the US military is paying millions of dollars to the Sunni's in Iraq.As soon as that stops they ll start killing eachother all over again.Infact they are still killing eachother right now(thanks to Krypton for showing us those facts in this thread).

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Originally posted by jerZ07002 read more intently. i said at the least we need to ensure that the government is capable of dealing with the problems we left for them. that doesn't mean we need to fix their problems. your view of things is usually too black and white; fortunately, the truth is usually a shade of gray.

Our presence is a huge part of the problem. How long are we going to continue this "We need to stay to prevent protect them" diatribe? We need to just leave already!

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Originally posted by The17sss As of today, two-thirds of Iraq is now under security control of the United States and Iraqi security forces. Here is a map of the provinces of Iraq. They're all under control; pretty much everything is subdued in Iraq. It's a major victory, and a major story. Unfortunately, nobody cares

That map is so simplified, it's retarded. What Iraqi forces? The Sunni Awakening is not part of the "Iraqi forces". They are their own force. The Kurds in the north have their own force. The Iraqi forces, i.e., Iraqi police and army, are Shiite dominated. "Iraqi force" implies a unified security apparatus which in Iraq, is far from reality.

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Originally posted by Krypton Our presence is a huge part of the problem. How long are we going to continue this "We need to stay to prevent protect them" diatribe? We need to just leave already!

again, you are not reading my writing. i said we need to help them so they are capable to deal with the problems we created. that doesn't mean we need to be paternalist. it merely means we have to provide them assistance so they can cope with what we caused. if that means helping them with security, then that's what we have to do. if that means we need to leave, then we need to leave. however, i highly doubt either you or hardcore trancer is the correct authority to make that decision.