quote:

Originally posted by Shakka You chose to post it, I'd assume you share some degree of agreement with the author. Otherwise, why would you use it as a retort?

I was showing the target selection arguments to expose how we came about bombing civilians instead of military targets.

___________________

quote:

Originally posted by ******** Seplling don't demonstrate intelligence and educatoin - knowing does.

quote:

Originally posted by Clovis I have it pretty good, thats entirely true, I just actually care about the plight of other people.

Honest question... I'm not trying to start an ideological battle with you, I really want to know. Do you think it's better to give the less fortunate whatever you can to help them, or that it's better to find ways to teach them to be self sufficient and learn how to stand on their own without government assistance? I can't tell if you're all the way on one side or down the middle or what. Just curious

Perhaps we could have sent Tokyo a telegram..."Look out into the Pacific Ocean and witness what will come to you if you do not surrender."

Then drop the atom bomb 10 miles off the coast of Tokyo. Might of worked, might of not. Or better yet, dropped it on Mount Fugi so they could see their sacred mountain blown to bits, just like their cities would be if they did not surrender.



But history is history and really there was no other way to force them to surrender without a full scale invasion of the home islands.

___________________

quote:

Originally posted by Krypton Perhaps we could have sent Tokyo a telegram..."Look out into the Pacific Ocean and witness what will come to you if you do not surrender." Then drop the atom bomb 10 miles off the coast of Tokyo. Might of worked, might of not. Or better yet, dropped it on Mount Fugi so they could see their sacred mountain blown to bits, just like their cities would be if they did not surrender. But history is history and really there was no other way to force them to surrender without a full scale invasion of the home islands.

I'm pretty sure we only had 2 bombs at the time as well. Hardly room to "waste" any strategic opportunities (as cold as that may sound). If they did not do the trick, things really would've sucked.

quote:

Originally posted by Krypton But history is history and really there was no other way to force them to surrender without a full scale invasion of the home islands.

I know hindsight is 20/20 but there are many of us who feel that the bombings were unnecessary and that Japan was completely defeated (by the Soviets in the Chinese theatre) and wouldn't have required a full scale invasion, but the bombs were dropped mainly out of selfishness and curiosity. And American history is just that AMERICAN history written for us and by us to display our actions in a favorable light. I'm sure in other countries their history of the bombings is viewed in a different light. Especially in countries like the Soviet Union who lost upwards of 13% of their population while American losses were at .32%

___________________
I've never been able to eat a whole baby.
Kill the women. Eat the children.
It's just one of those days where you want to bend over everyone you know and kiss their ass goodbye with a big sideways boot.

Latest Mix

quote:

Originally posted by Zild I know hindsight is 20/20 but there are many of us who feel that the bombings were unnecessary and that Japan was completely defeated (by the Soviets in the Chinese theatre) and wouldn't have required a full scale invasion, but the bombs were dropped mainly out of selfishness and curiosity.

Plus they were not white or European...they were just japs..So lets see what kind of shit America coukd blow up....
No way America would of used the bomb against its distant cousins Fritz and Gertrude in Germany... No Fucking way...

and if you think I am wrong or out of line, just remember this:


just another example of American History...

Last edited by LazFX on Aug-27-2008 at 15:25

Japan was on it's knees when we dropped on Hiroshima, they would have been crushed regardless. The fire bombing destroyed far more of the country while killing far less people, it says there that up to 90 million people were rendered homeless. They had almost nothing left with which to continue the war.

Fundamentally for me the idea of using an atomic weapon against civilians is wrong any way you put it. People died absolutely horrific deaths, slow, long, excruciating deaths.

I recommend this book for first hand perspectives:

http://www.amazon.com/Crazy-Iris-St...o/dp/0802151841

___________________

quote:

Originally posted by ******** Seplling don't demonstrate intelligence and educatoin - knowing does.

Such is war. I'm not aware of a single war in history which could be characterized as pretty.

quote:

Originally posted by Shakka Such is war. I'm not aware of a single war in history which could be characterized as pretty.

Neither am I. But that is an easy way of dismissing the point. We had a choice.

___________________

quote:

Originally posted by ******** Seplling don't demonstrate intelligence and educatoin - knowing does.

quote:

Originally posted by Clovis Neither am I. But that is an easy way of dismissing the point. We had a choice.

We were not there. Of course there was a choice and a decision was made. That you do not agree with it is your opinion and is fine though it does not necessarily make you right. Additionally not everyone agrees with you. At the time the decision was made, it was deemed to be the most strategic and timely one. History has shown that while the results were certainly ugly, the decision achieved the desired objective. You can play armchair general all you want, but the facts speak for themselves.

quote:

Originally posted by Shakka We were not there. Of course there was a choice and a decision was made. That you do not agree with it is your opinion and is fine though it does not necessarily make you right. Additionally not everyone agrees with you. At the time the decision was made, it was deemed to be the most strategic and timely one. History has shown that while the results were certainly ugly, the decision achieved the desired objective. You can play armchair general all you want, but the facts speak for themselves.

You should read the dissenting voices I posted above. Mostly actual generals.

The Japanese barely had time to register what had happened at Hiroshima and we dropped on Nagasaki, 2 days earlier than planned because there was a week of upcoming bad weather forecast.

Decisions were made and so was history, but that doesn't mean we can't recognize it as a failure. It should be a lesson to the future, that such decisions should not be made so casually. Which is much how I feel about the decision to go to war in Iraq.

I understand the position of those who think the A-bombs were necessary, but given the facts presented I think the case is poor. I don't think the bombs necessarily prevented a land invasion or the death of many more. Hindsight is indeed 20/20, but the facts of the time seem to say that we dropped the bomb without really understanding what we were about to unleash on the world. The use of nuclear weapons on civilians should be universally accepted as a war crime (in my opinion).

___________________

quote:

Originally posted by ******** Seplling don't demonstrate intelligence and educatoin - knowing does.

At least consider that the smallest little bit of it might've carried a little retribution for Pearl Harbor as well. I can understand your abhorrence of civilian death on a massive scale (I'd hope anyone could). However I simply don't see this as such a lopsided argument as you're trying to present.