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Funkesthesiac69
Senior tranceaddict



Registered: Aug 2008
Location: Santa Cruz, CA

quote:
Originally posted by Krypton
You've made a small fallacy. The straw man argument, "Changing the subject? wasn't it your primary contention that I was not thinking critically and that if I did I would subscribe to your views by attempting to rebut my arguments by trying to highlight your so-called expertise on the subject?" I never made any such argument, but rather, you've changed my argument in such a way as to make it easy for you to dismiss my points. The most essential point is (i.e. why i say you haven't practiced critical thinking), is that you have no idea how the Federal Reserve System works. You've just regurgitated, almost word for word, the conspiracy theories about the Federal Reserve, which are unfounded. Then you go off about Obama, politicians, and the media. Can't you conspiracy theorist stick to the topic at hand? You are a "follower" in the sense that you have yet to demonstrate a competant understanding of the Federal Reserve System, how it works, and its purpose. Until then, I'm going to have to debunk every one of your false assertions like, "Nothing backs the dollar." If you don't even know the basics of our economic system, you shouldn't even be commenting on the supposed evilness of the Federal Reserve System.





People are entirely capable of approaching an issue from an objective point of view. It's called looking at both sides of the issue, "critical thinking". Scientists bet their careers on it. You don't go into a scientific question with your answer already in mind. You let your observations tell you the answer. Don't take this as insult, becuase I think this is how your taking it. It's just an observation of your arguments. You lack a competant understanding of the Federal Reserve System but yet, you preach on and on about the Fed does this, or the Fed does that. I've demonstrated, clearly, you are wrong on almost everything you've posted. For example, again, you said, "Nothing backs the dollar." Clearly, you don't even have a competant understanding of what fiat currency really is, and that it is actually backed by something. In order to make the conspiratorial assertions about the Fed which you make, you must first understand and grasp what the Fed really is, what it does, and the purpose of its existance. Until then, your assertions are unfounded.

As for Ron Paul, I voted for him in the primaries......I'de like to see all income taxes abolished, but I will not say they are illegal.



Don't take anything I say as an insult. For once, we have someone who actually tries to debate rationally, unlike colorut or trancer x, who copy & paste other people's opinions, and use them as their own; then insult anyone who disagrees with them. You are someone I can have an intelligent conversation with. I take your opinions seriously, though with a very skeptical mindset, because I really don't think you truly understand the Federal Reserve System enough to critically examine this conspiratorial viewpoint which you subscribe to. I'm not disregarding your opinion, becuase here I am, debating you point for point on it, and spending my precious time doing it...



I think you're wrong here. If the Supreme Court was so worried about public insurection against its decisions, they wouldn't have passed the racial desegregation rulings in the 1960's. That certainly got White Southerners up in arms. The case which you are referring to, called Pollock v. Farmers' Loan & Trust Company, 157 U.S. 429, did not rule income taxes to be unconstitutional. But rather, it ruled that UNAPPORTIONED income taxes were constitutional. That is an entirely different thing than to say income taxes are unconstitutional. There is actually a statute which does state the constitutionality of the income tax. It's the 16th amendment, and all supreme court cases which have all affirmed its constitutionality. I don't know about you, but I put my faith in the competant understanding of constitutional law, which is the job of Supreme Court Justices. If your friend's uncle is so adamant about his viewpoint, then he needs to go before the Supreme Court and argue his case. Otherwise, his view is not relevant to the law.



Yes, but the war on drugs, and the patriot act have nothing to do with the topic we originally were debating, which was the Federal Reserve System. If you want to go on about the War on Drugs, and the Patriot Act, fine, I'm just saying, we're digressing from the original debate. Anyways, I agree, the War on Drugs, and the Patriot Act are digusting pieces of paper which negate freedom of liberty.



Firstly, the fiat currency IS NOT worthless. It is backed by the value of the country's goods, services, and assets. Take a look at the Gross Domestic Product and you'll know what I'm talking about. Has the Federal Reserve made mistakes? Of course. That still doesn't mean it a conspiratorial body out to enslave you. Yes, the Fed may have overextended liquidity by lowering the Fed rate to 1% in 2003. Guess what? Today the Fed lowered the Fed rate to 1.5%. Do you think they are overextending liquidity today? You jump from subject to subject and its hard to keep up with you. But, I'm a moderate liberal. I agree with you. The War on Drugs, Iraq War, Patriot Act, are all horrible policies which should be scrapped immediately. Hell, I even want our forces out of Afghanistan. The Taliban never attacked us...



You demonstrate far more maturity than some of our other 9/11 truther dickwads on this board. Not saying you're a 9/11 truther, but I think the Federal Reserve conspiracies are in that league. At least you're tolerant of criticism, unlike trancer x. I'll say to you what I say to him. The moment you become intolerant to criticism is the day you become no different from the neocons running Washington.



I have no problem with you posting your viewpoints, and I enjoy debating them with you. If you go to this thread, http://www.tranceaddict.com/forums/...995&forumid=66, I basically came out screaming everything you mentioned in this thread, almost verbatim! Some intelligent voices calmed me down, and informed me of the same problem you yourself have. A lack of understanding of the Federal Reserve System. Since then, I've come back from the fringe...

Read the bottom post (occrider) on this page... http://www.tranceaddict.com/forums/...66&pagenumber=8


I appreciate your time in debating my points and I will read the thread you posted and do more research on the nature of the federal reserve system from a variety of sources (no documentaries or alex jones articles that is for sure) and decide for myself whether or not the Federal Reserve System is a worthy institution.
I am not a blind conspiracy theorist nutjob I actually consider opposing points of view and I will consider yours and after I do my homework I will state my verdict which is still quite uncertain
but I am still largely opposed to the policy decisions the US government and Federal Reserve have undertaken since 1913 and I hope that someday, somehow when the train wreck we euphemistically like to call the U.S. and World Economy "craters", as bill clinton would like to say, is cleared up we will reform the underpinning systemic errors (whatever they may be) that caused our train to crash.

[B] I will give my revised two cents after I do more research from a broader basis of credible knowledge, and if i find that the federal reserve, the income tax and the lack of the gold standard all hold up to the test of reason (FROM THE REASONING CAPACITY OF SOMEONE WHO GOT A 2350 ON THE SAT Reasoning Test (800 Writing 790 Reading 760 Math) which is pretty fucking exceptional in my somewhat humble opinion (HAHA) considering ONLY 1849 COLLEGE-BOUND SENIORS OUT OF 1,491,791 COLLEGE-BOUND SENIORS HAVE A SCORE TANTAMOUNT TO OR HIGHER THAN MINE as you can see by THIS CHARThttp://www.collegeboard.com/prod_do...ntile_ranks.pdf) THEN I WILL DEFINITELY ADMIT MY ERROR.[B]
And you are right I should do more research I only got a 3.1 high school GPA because of my laziness, frequent marijuana usage, and recklessly frequent raving and clubbing "Behavior" LOL
otherwise I might have actually had a shot at a 2400 and an Ivy League-Caliber Education.


but here is something almost all of us can agree on George W. Bush is a TERRIBLE president! AMEN to those who read my posts and thank you for your respectful criticism because it is you collectively who have helped me to realize that I need to stop just using my IQ and SAT Scores as justifications for not doing sufficent research to back my arguments.


___________________

Last edited by Funkesthesiac69 on Oct-09-2008 at 06:00

Old Post Oct-09-2008 05:33  United States
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Funkesthesiac69
Senior tranceaddict



Registered: Aug 2008
Location: Santa Cruz, CA

If only this man was running third party!
this was shot in march almost 7 months ago
YOU TALK ABOUT FORESIGHT AND JUDGMENT
THIS GUY HAS IT!







___________________

Old Post Oct-09-2008 09:18  United States
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Lebezniatnikov
Stupidity Annoys Me



Registered: Feb 2004
Location: DC

quote:
Originally posted by Funkesthesiac69
If only this man was running third party!
this was shot in march almost 7 months ago
YOU TALK ABOUT FORESIGHT AND JUDGMENT
THIS GUY HAS IT!



Oh give me a break. If that is the bar, then Obama surely clears it. Remember that speech that Obama gave on Wall Street last September? Apparently not.

quote:
September 17, 2007
Text
Barack Obama’s Speech at Nasdaq

Seventy-five years ago this week, Governor Franklin Delano Roosevelt took his campaign for the presidency to the Commonwealth Club in San Francisco.

It was a time when faith in the American economy was shaken – a time when too many of our leaders clung to the conventional thinking that said all we could do is sit idly by and wish that our problems would go away on their own. But Franklin Roosevelt challenged that cynicism. Amid a crisis of confidence Roosevelt called for a "re-appraisal of values." He made clear that in this country, our right to live must also include the right to live comfortably; that government must favor no small group at the expense of all its citizens; and that in order for us to prosper as one nation, "…the responsible heads of finance and industry, instead of acting each for himself, must work together to achieve the common end."

This vision of America would require change that went beyond replacing a failed President. It would require a renewed trust in the market and a renewed spirit of obligation and cooperation between business and workers; between a people and their government. As FDR put it, "Faith in America, faith in our tradition of personal responsibility, faith in our institutions, and faith in ourselves demands that we all recognize the new terms of the old social contract."

Seventy-five years later, this faith is calling us to act once more.

We certainly do not face a test of the magnitude that Roosevelt's generation did. But we are tested still. We meet at a time when much of Wall Street is holding its collective breath. Here at the NASDAQ and all across America, the tickers are being watched with heightened anxiety and considerable uncertainty. There is much anticipation about tomorrow's meeting of the Fed, and with each new day, there is hope that the headlines will bring better news than the last.

It is a hope shared by millions of Americans, men and women, who have experienced this kind of anxiety and uncertainty long before it arrived on Wall Street. They are the families I meet every day who are working longer hours for a paycheck that isn't getting any bigger and can't seem to cover the rising cost of health care and tuition and taxes. They are the Maytag workers I've met in Galesburg, Illinois and Newton, Iowa – workers who believed they would retire and never have to work again; workers who now compete with their teenagers for minimum wage jobs at Wal-Mart because their factory moved overseas.

These Americans and many others were already struggling before the problems on Wall Street arose. Now they are looking at their homes and wondering if their greatest source of wealth will still have the same value in another year, or even another month. And we're all wondering whether this will spill over to the wider economy.

So we know there is a need right now to restore confidence in our markets. We know there is a need to renew public trust in our markets. But I also think that this is another moment that requires, in FDR's words, a re-appraisal of our values as a nation.

I believe that America's free market has been the engine of America's great progress. It's created a prosperity that is the envy of the world. It's led to a standard of living unmatched in history. And it has provided great rewards to the innovators and risk-takers who have made America a beacon for science, and technology, and discovery.

But I also know that in this country, our grand experiment has only worked because we have guided the market's invisible hand with a higher principle.

It's the idea that we are all in this together. From CEOs to shareholders, from financiers to factory workers, we all have a stake in each other's success because the more Americans prosper, the more America prospers. That's why we've had titans of industry who've made it their mission to pay well enough that their employees could afford the products they made. That's why employees at companies like Google don't mind the vast success of their CEOs – because they share in that success just the same. And that's why our economy hasn't just been the world's greatest wealth creator – it's been the world's greatest job generator. It's been the tide that has lifted the boats of the largest middle-class in history.

We have not come this far because we practice survival of the fittest. America is America because we believe in creating a framework in which all can succeed. Our free market was never meant to be a free license to take whatever you can get, however you can get it. And so from time to time, we have put in place certain rules of the road to make competition fair, and open, and honest. We have done this not to stifle prosperity or liberty, but to foster those things and ensure that they are shared and spread as widely as possible.

In recent years, we have seen a dangerous erosion of the rules and principles that have allowed our market to work and our economy to thrive. Instead of thinking about what's good for America or what's good for business, a mentality has crept into certain corners of Washington and the business world that says, "what's good for me is good enough."

In our government, we see campaign contributions and lobbyists used to cut corners and win favors that stack the deck against businesses and consumers who play by the rules. Massive tax cuts are shoved outside the budget window and accounting shenanigans are used to hide the full cost of this war.

In the business world, it's a mentality that sees conflicts of interest as opportunities for profit. The quick kill is prized without regard to long-term consequences for the financial system and the economy. And while this may benefit the few who push the envelope as far as it will go, it's doesn't benefit America and it doesn't benefit the market. Just because it makes money doesn't mean it's good for business.

It's bad for business when boards allow their executives to set the price of their stock options to guarantee that they'll get rich regardless of how they perform. It's bad for the bottom line when CEOs receive massive severance packages after letting down shareholders, firing workers and dumping their pensions; or when they throw lavish birthday parties with company funds.

It's bad for competition when you have an Administration that's willing to approve merger after merger with barely any scrutiny. Such an approach stifles innovation, it robs consumers of choice, it means higher prices, and we have to guard against it.

And it's bad for the market when there are over $1 trillion worth of loopholes in the corporate tax code, or when some companies get to set up a mailbox in a foreign country to avoid paying any taxes at all. This means a greater share of taxes for Americans and small businesses that are trying to compete but can't afford to lobby their way to more loopholes.

It also means that investment goes to the companies that are best connected instead of the ones that are most productive. Economics 101 tells us special interest politics distorts the free market. After all, why would an oil company invest in research for alternative fuels that could save our environment when they can get billions of dollars in subsidies to keep drilling for oil and gas?

These anti-market, anti-business practices are wasteful, unproductive, and antithetical to the very spirit of capitalism. They benefit the undeserving few at the expense of hardworking Americans and entrepreneurs who play by the rules.

In fact, the danger with this mentality isn't just that it offends our morals, it's that it endangers our markets. Markets can't thrive without the trust of investors and the public. At a most basic level, capital markets work by steering capital to the place where it is most productive. Without transparency, that cannot happen. If the information is flawed, if there is fraud, or if the risks facing financial institutions are not fully disclosed, people stop investing because they fear they're being had. When the public trust is abused badly enough, it can bring financial markets to their knees. We all suffer when we do not ensure that markets are transparent, open and honest.

We saw this during the dotcom boom of the 90s when conflicts of interest between securities analysts, whose research was supposed to guide investors, and the banks they worked for led investors to doubt the markets in general.

We saw it during the Enron and WorldCom scandals when major public companies artificially pumped up their earnings, disguised their losses and otherwise engaged in accounting fraud to make their profits look better – a practice that ultimately led investors to question the balance sheets of all companies.

And we cannot help but see some reflections of these practices when we look at the subprime mortgage fiasco today.

Subprime lending started off as a good idea – helping Americans buy homes who couldn't previously afford to. Financial institutions created new financial instruments that could securitize these loans, slice them into finer and finer risk categories and spread them out among investors around the country and around the world.

In theory, this should have allowed mortgage lending to be less risky and more diversified. But as certain lenders and brokers began to see how much money could be made, they began to lower their standards. Some appraisers began inflating their estimates to get the deals done. Some borrowers started claiming income they didn't have just to qualify for the loans, and some were engaging in irresponsible speculation. But many borrowers were tricked into glossing over the fine print. And ratings agencies began rating bundles of different kinds of these loans as low-risk even though they were very high-risk.

Most everyone knew that some of these deals were just too good to be true, but all that money flowing in made it tempting to look the other way and ignore the unscrupulous practice of some bad actors

And yet, time and again we were warned this could happen. Ned Gramlich, the former Fed governor who sadly passed away two weeks ago, wrote an entire book predicting this very situation. Repeated calls for better disclosure and stronger oversight were met with millions in mortgage industry lobbying. Far too many continued to put their own short-term gain ahead of what they knew the long-term consequences would be when those rates exploded.

Those consequences are now clear: nearly 2.5 million homeowners could lose their homes. Millions more who had nothing to do with this could see the value of their own home decline – with some estimates projecting a cost of nearly $164 billion, primarily in lost home equity. The projected cost to investors is nearly $150 billion worldwide. And the impact on the housing market and wider economy has been so great that some economists are now predicting a possible recession – a prediction all of us hope does not come to pass.

There are a number of lessons that we must learn from this going forward. We know that much of this could have been avoided if the market operated with more honesty and accountability. We also know we would have been far better off if there were greater transparency and more information had been available to the American people.

To that extent, I believe there are a few steps we should take to prevent future crises of this kind and restore some measure of public trust in the market: First, we need more disclosure and accountability in the housing market. To ensure that potential homeowners aren't tricked into purchasing loans they can't afford, I've proposed updating the current mortgage rules to establish a federal definition of mortgage fraud and enact tough penalties against lenders who knowingly act in bad faith. I've also proposed a Home Score system that would create a simplified, standardized metric for home mortgages, sort of like the APR. This would empower Americans to make smart decisions by allowing prospective buyers to easily compare various mortgage products so they can find out whether they can afford the payments. And I believe we should finally enact the meaningful mortgage disclosure laws that the mortgage industry has been lobbying against for far too long.

Second, I believe that if we hope to restore trust in the markets, we must be able to trust the judgment of our rating agencies. The failure of government to exercise adequate oversight over the rating agencies will cost investors and public pension funds billions of dollars – losses we have not yet fully recognized. We cannot let the public trust be lost by a conflict of interest between the rating agencies and the people they're rating. As Arthur Levitt recently reminded us, this happened when rating agencies continued to give a rosy outlook for Enron despite its impending bankruptcy. And of course we saw it this year when subprime mortgage loans continued to receive strong ratings despite repeated warnings of the instability of the mortgages and the impending slowdown of the housing market.

Here's the real danger – if the public comes to view this like the accounting analyses of Enron, the markets will be ravished by a crisis in confidence. We must take steps to avoid that at all costs, and that is why I believe there should be an immediate investigation of the relationship and business practices of rating agencies and their clients.

The third thing we need to do is look at other areas in the market where a lack of transparency could lead to similar problems. Many of the people who hold these subprime mortgages are now shifting their debt to credit cards, and if they do not understand the commitments they're taking on, or are subjected to predatory practices, this could fester into a second crisis down the road. That's why I'm proposing a five-star credit card rating system to inform consumers about the level of risk involved in every credit card they sign up for, including how easily the company can change the interest rate. If more Americans were armed with this kind of information before they purchased risky mortgage loans, the current crisis might not have happened. Now that so many are in debt, we shouldn't let the same lax standards create another.

Finally, while it's not my place to comment on the actions of the Fed, I have heard many of you say that you hope for a sizable rate cut tomorrow to soothe the market turmoil.

But I also know that there are nearly 2.5 million Americans who may lose their homes no matter what happens tomorrow. And so for those institutions that are holding these mortgages, I ask them to show some flexibility to folks trying to sell or refinance their houses. They are in the same liquidity pinch as companies are, but they don't have the same resources available to protect themselves.

Now, in addition to these immediate steps, I also believe there is a larger lesson to be learned from the subprime crisis.

In this modern, interconnected economy, there is no dividing line between Main Street and Wall Street. The decisions that are made in New York's high-rises and hedge funds matter and have consequences for millions of Americans across the country. And whether those Americans keep their homes or their jobs; whether they can spend with confidence and avoid falling into debt – that matters and has consequences for the entire market.

We all have a stake in each other's success. We all have a stake in ensuring that the market is efficient and transparent; that it inspires trust and confidence; that it rewards those who are truly successful instead of those who are just successful at gaming the system. Because if the last few months have taught us anything, it's that we can all suffer from the excesses of a few. Turning a blind eye to the cronyism in our midst can put us all in jeopardy. And we cannot accept that in the United States of America.

So I promise you this. I will be a President who believes in your success. I will value your contribution to this country and I will do what I can to encourage it, because I understand that how well you do is inextricably linked to how well America does. And I will always be a strong advocate for a market that is free and open.

But today I am asking you to join me in saying that in this country, we will not tolerate a market that is fixed. We will not tolerate a market that is rigged by lobbyists who don't represent the interests of real Americans or most businesses. And we will not tolerate "what's good for me is good enough" any longer – because the only thing that's good enough is what's best for America.

I am also asking you to join me in doing something else today. I am asking you to remind yourselves that in this country, we rise or fall as one people. And I am asking you to join me in ushering in a new era of mutual responsibility in America.

Right now there are millions of hardworking Americans who have been struggling to get by for quite some time. They have watched their wages stagnate and their health costs rise and their pensions disappear. Some have seen jobs shipped overseas and others have found new ones that pay much less. Some tell their children they won't be able to afford college this year, others send their youngest to a school that is crumbling around them.

I meet these Americans every single day – people who believe they have been left on the sidelines by a global economy that has forever changed the rules of the game. They understand that revolutions in technology and communication have torn borders and opened up new markets and new opportunities. They know we can't go back to yesterday or wall off our economy from everyone else. Their problem is not that our world is flat. It's that our playing field isn't level. It's that opportunity is no longer equal. And that's something we cannot accept anymore.

For too long we have had a President who has clung to the belief that there is nothing America can do about this. He has looked away from these challenges and peddled a philosophy of "what's bad for you is not my problem."

It may be true that many of the dislocations that have occurred were propelled by technology, and if we are honest, I think we must admit that those who have benefited from the new global marketplace – and that includes almost everyone in this room – have not always concerned themselves with the losers in this new economy. There has been a tendency, during the boom times, to consider the casualties of a changing economy to be inevitable, and to justify outsized paydays or lower tax rates on Wall Street earnings as part of the natural order of things.

Indeed, rather than addressing this growing sense of uncertainty and constricting opportunity for millions of working-class and middle-class Americans, this Administration has accelerated these trends through its tax policies and spending priorities – to the point where there is greater income inequality now than at any time since the Gilded Age.

It may be true, as some have argued, that larger forces are at work here – that technological advance and globalization have triggered a fundamental change in the economy. It is true as well that we cannot simply look backwards for solutions – to try to fence off the world beyond our borders, or to hope that the New Deal programs borne of a different era are, by themselves, somehow adequate to meet the challenges of the future.

No, we are going to have to adapt our institutions to a new world as we always have. And in doing so, we have to remind ourselves that we rise and fall as one nation; that a country in which only a few prosper is antithetical to our ideals and our democracy; that those of us who have benefited greatly from the blessings of this country have a solemn obligation to open the doors of opportunity, not just for our children, but to all of America's children; and that unless we take immediate steps to realign the interests of all Americans in growth and prosperity, we may generate a political climate that is inimical to both.

And so, in the coming weeks, I will be laying out a 21st century economic agenda for America. It's an agenda that will level the playing field for more Americans to ensure that America can compete and thrive in a global economy.

It will focus on three broad areas.

Tomorrow, I'll lay out the first part of my agenda – a plan to modernize and simplify our tax code so that it provides greater opportunity and more relief to more Americans. For far too long, our tax code has been so riddled with special-interest loopholes and giveaways that it's shifted the tax burden to small businesses and middle-class Americans. At a time when most Americans are facing stagnant wages and rising costs, that's not fair and it doesn't benefit our economy. My plan will give a break to middle-class Americans, seniors, and the homeowners who are feeling today's anxiety and uncertainty, because I believe that we all have a stake in restoring their confidence and investing in their prosperity.

The second part of my agenda will be to ensure America's competitive edge in the 21st century. This starts with providing every American with a world-class education from cradle to adulthood. We know that in this economy, countries that out-educate us today will out-compete us tomorrow. And we also know that China is already graduating four times as many engineers as we do and that our share of twenty-four-year-olds with college degrees now falls somewhere between Bulgaria and Costa Rica.

We can't allow ourselves to fall behind. That means investing in early child education. It means recruiting an army of new, qualified teachers who we pay more and support more because we know how important their job is to the future of this country. And it means finally making a college education affordable and available to every American. Tony Blair once said that "Talent is the 21 st century wealth," and I believe we all have a stake in nurturing that talent if we hope to prosper in this century.

Ensuring our competitive edge also means investing more in the science and technology that has fueled so much of our nation's economic growth. And one place where that investment would make an enormous difference to the future of this country is in a renewable energy policy that ends our addiction on foreign oil. We know this addiction isn't sustainable for our security. We know it's not sustainable for the planet. And I've talked to countless CEOs and business leaders who know it's not sustainable for our economy to be held hostage to the spot oil market. I believe that we all have a stake in a renewable future that will create thousands of new jobs and entire new industries that can fuel our prosperity well into the next century.

Finally, the third part of my agenda will be to modernize and strengthen America's safety net for working Americans. Like all of you, I believe in free trade. But we have to acknowledge that for millions of Americans, its burdens outweigh its benefits. And so if we want to avoid rising protectionism in this country; if we expect working Americans to accept and even embrace free trade, then I believe we all have a stake in embracing policies that will provide them with a sense of security. That means health insurance and a pension that they can always count on. That means skills and training that can actually help people find a job. And that means wages that actually make work pay.

I ask for your support for this economic agenda, both in this campaign and if I should get the chance to enact these policies as your President. I will not pretend it will come without cost, but I do believe we can do achieve this in a fiscally responsible way – certainly more so than the current Administration that's given us deficits as far as the eye can see.

I know some may say it's anathema to come to Wall Street and call for shared sacrifice so that all Americans can benefit from this new economy of ours. But I believe that all of you are as open and willing to listen as anyone else in America. I believe you care about this country and the future we are leaving to the next generation. I believe your work to be a part of building a stronger, more vibrant, and more just America. I think the problem is that no one has asked you to play a part in the project of American renewal.

I also realize that there are some who will say that achieving all of this is far too difficult. That it is too hard to build consensus. That we are too divided and self-interested to think about the responsibilities we have to each other and to our country. That the times are simply too tough.

But then I am reminded that we have been in tougher times and we have faced far more difficult challenges. And each time we have emerged stronger, more united, and more prosperous than the last. It is faith in the American ideal that carries us through, as well as the belief that was voiced by Franklin Roosevelt all those years ago this week: "Failure is not an American habit; and in the strength of great hope we must all shoulder our common load." That is the strength and the hope we seek both today – and in all the days and months to come.


http://www.nytimes.com/2007/09/17/u...int&oref=slogin

You want to talk about the media not giving something its due attention? Read the above.


___________________

Old Post Oct-09-2008 13:44  United Nations
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culorut
Supreme tranceaddict



Registered: Jan 2007
Location: right here

Texas Straight Talk

Ron Paul

Borrowing, Spending, Counterfeiting


Few Americans truly understand how our Federal Reserve system enables Congress to spend far beyond its means, but the cycle of spending and printing money affects all of us. Simply put, the more money our Treasury prints, the less every dollar is worth. Our pure fiat money system, in place since the last vestiges of a gold standard were eliminated in the early 1970s, has reduced the value of your savings by 80%. Disregard the government�s Consumer Price Index, which substantially underreports price inflation. Monetary inflation is true inflation, and we only need to look at the cost of homes, cars, energy, and medical care to recognize that a dollar buys far less today than ever.

Economist Mark Thornton of the Ludwig von Mises Institute lays out a sobering case against the long-term health of the U.S. dollar. He identifies several facts and trends that bode ill for millions of Americans counting on dollar-denominated assets to fund their retirements.

First, federal debt continues to grow exponentially and shows no sign of abating. Americans were shocked at the notion of a $1 trillion federal debt in 1980; just 25 years later the total approaches $8 trillion. The Bush administration and the current Congress have increased spending at rates unseen since the New Deal and Great Society eras, and single-year deficits now exceed $500 billion. There is zero political will in Washington to curb spending, as evidenced by the shameful transportation bill recently passed by Congress.

Second, federal entitlement programs like Social Security and Medicare will not be �fixed� by politicians who are unwilling to make hard choices and admit mistakes. Demographic trends will force tax increases and greater deficit spending to maintain benefits for millions of older Americans who are dependent on the federal government. Faced with uncomfortable financial realities, Congress will seek to avoid the day of reckoning by the most expedient means available-- and the Federal Reserve undoubtedly will accommodate Washington by printing more dollars to pay the bills.

Third, future administrations are unlikely to challenge a foreign policy orthodoxy that views America as the world�s savior. We are hemorrhaging billions of dollars every month in Iraq, and we waste billions more every year through foreign aid and overseas meddling. A foreign policy based on nation-building and the imposition of �democracy� abroad, in direct contravention of our founders� admonitions, is not economically sustainable. In Korea alone, U.S. taxpayers have spent nearly one trillion in today�s dollars over 55 years. A permanent military presence in Iraq and the wider Middle East will cost enormous amounts of money.

Finally, we face a reordering of the entire world economy. China, Japan, and Asia in general have been happy to hold U.S. debt instruments in recent decades, but they will not prop up our spending habits forever. Foreign central banks are increasingly reluctant to hold more U.S. dollars, understanding that American leaders do not have the discipline to maintain a stable currency. When the rest of the world finally abandons the dollar as the global reserve currency, both Congress and American consumers will find borrowing money a more expensive proposition.

All of these factors make it likely that the U.S. dollar will continue to decline in value, perhaps precipitously, in the coming decade. Will it take an economic depression before the American public finally holds the political class accountable for its reckless borrowing, spending, and counterfeiting?

The greatest threat facing America today is not terrorism, or foreign economic competition, or illegal immigration. The greatest threat facing America today is the disastrous fiscal policies of our own government, marked by shameless deficit spending and Federal Reserve currency devaluation. It is this one-two punch-- Congress spending more than it can tax or borrow, and the Fed printing money to make up the difference-- that threatens to impoverish us by further destroying the value of our dollars.


http://www.house.gov/paul/tst/tst2005/tst082205.htm

Old Post Oct-09-2008 17:39  Canada
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culorut
Supreme tranceaddict



Registered: Jan 2007
Location: right here

Some of Kennedy's Primary Goals as President


Abolishing the Federal reserve.

Stopping Israel (Ben Gurion) from acquiring the Bomb.

Dismantling the CIA.

Making peace with the Soviet.

Closing down anti Castro mercenary camps in the USA.

Stopping the expansion of the Vietnam war.


The problem is that he never went public with his plans, he should of went public first and told the american people.

Never the less a true hero in the history books which any president that has come after him cannot hold a candle to.

Old Post Oct-09-2008 17:47  Canada
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culorut
Supreme tranceaddict



Registered: Jan 2007
Location: right here

JFKII - The Bush Connection





Old Post Oct-09-2008 17:49  Canada
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culorut
Supreme tranceaddict



Registered: Jan 2007
Location: right here

The Assassination of JFK Junior




Overwhelming, jaw-dropping evidence of foul play in the death of John F Kennedy Jr. - all based on official government documents. The search of the crash site was delayed an incomprehensible 15 hours. There was, indeed, a flight instructor on the plane, whose body is missing. It is clear that someone one on that plane committed suicide, shutting off the fuel control valve before plunging the plane into the sea. The prime suspect, George W. Bush, though very publicly running for president, disappeared the day of the murder and stayed missing for 3 days.

Old Post Oct-09-2008 17:53  Canada
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shaolin_Z
Hei Hu Quan



Registered: Nov 2004
Location: Austin, Texas, USA: TXTA #102

quote:
Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN
capitalism IS economic slavery

Good ol' Marxist train of thought eh PKC?

EDIT: BTW, how the hell did all of you manage to fill up the thread with 5-6 pages of insults in just one day? That's quite an accomplishment .


___________________
"The Greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge." -Stephen Hawking
"First they came for the communists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a communist;
Then they came for the socialists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a socialist;
Then they came for the trade unionists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a trade unionist;
Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out— because I was not a Jew;
Then they came for me— and there was no one left to speak out for me." -Martin Niemöller

Old Post Oct-09-2008 18:44  United States
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Funkesthesiac69
Senior tranceaddict



Registered: Aug 2008
Location: Santa Cruz, CA

quote:
Originally posted by Lebezniatnikov
Oh give me a break. If that is the bar, then Obama surely clears it. Remember that speech that Obama gave on Wall Street last September? Apparently not.



http://www.nytimes.com/2007/09/17/u...int&oref=slogin

You want to talk about the media not giving something its due attention? Read the above.


Yes I agree obama clears that bar far better than McHitler/Palin
Which is why I stated in another thread that I was tempted to vote for obama/biden simply to avert the disaster of a potential palin presidency. Obama projects a good image around the world and has some good ideas and is certainly more liberty leaning (although he did vote for the patriot act) and peaceful (but yet again he never talks about withdrawing troops from countries where we spend billions where wars never actually occur i.e. germany, japan, SAUDI ARABIA (THE ORIGINAL INSULT THAT PROVOKED THE TERRORISTS ON 9/11 TO ATTACK THE UNITED STATES BECAUSE WE WERE OCCUPYING THEIR HOLY LAND)
Does obama talk about how he is going to account for the amount of money he is proposing to spend? no of course not because both candidates try to skirt around the issue of national debt by not identifying it as one of the primary if not the primary cause of our current credit crisis, he is much more sane than mccain in the membrane and he is an inspiring speaker but I prefer someone who actually stands by his principles to rule. IF OBAMA WINS WATCH OUT IN 4 years, jesse ventura or another libertarian leaning independent/republican with household recognition could easily beat obama if he mismanages this crisis which i hope he doesnt but if he does then well.....DEVOTED BASE OF LIBERTY LEANING THINKERS ESPECIALLY IN THE YOUNGER GENERATION MANY OF WHOM GRAVITATED FROM OBAMA TO PAUL WHEN THEY DID THEIR HOMEWORK will provide overwhelming financial backing which will lead to ballot access and an overwhelming anti-establishment sentiment will occur if obama fails or say god forbid he is assassinated by a stupid neocon hitlerite with racist views. which is unfortunately possible in our political climate...i hope he becomes president and does a good job and if he does i would consider him again for my vote but if he doesn't there will be a leadership crisis in washington and true change agents will campaign against him and win


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Last edited by Funkesthesiac69 on Oct-09-2008 at 19:36

Old Post Oct-09-2008 19:13  United States
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Funkesthesiac69
Senior tranceaddict



Registered: Aug 2008
Location: Santa Cruz, CA

fff


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Last edited by Funkesthesiac69 on Oct-09-2008 at 19:40

Old Post Oct-09-2008 19:17  United States
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Funkesthesiac69
Senior tranceaddict



Registered: Aug 2008
Location: Santa Cruz, CA

quote:
Originally posted by Funkesthesiac69
what do you have against a politician with a differing opinion when i essentially said because of the impracticality of an independent candidate winning this year that I would vote for obama
i would say you are being contentious without reason
stop arguing with someone who agrees with your fundamental point! vote for obama on nov 4th
I disagree with you on him being the most qualified out of the original pool hell dennis kucinich and even joe biden seem more qualified on the democratic side
Ron Paul is essentially a social liberal like obama but a fiscal conservative, i disagree with him on abortion and some minor things like how quickly to implement reducing the size of government but you should at least respect my differing opinion

Take a look at a factual comparison between the two candidates on fundamental issues its just 56 seconds long



Yes this video omits some things and presents the comparison in a way that is somewhat biased but it is backed by fact the invasion of iran comparison might be skewed given obama's recent statements but he has not taken all military options off the table, we can't afford a war against a country like iran, israel has enough nuclear weapons to stand on its own


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Old Post Oct-09-2008 19:40  United States
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Funkesthesiac69
Senior tranceaddict



Registered: Aug 2008
Location: Santa Cruz, CA

quote:
Originally posted by culorut
The Assassination of JFK Junior




Overwhelming, jaw-dropping evidence of foul play in the death of John F Kennedy Jr. - all based on official government documents. The search of the crash site was delayed an incomprehensible 15 hours. There was, indeed, a flight instructor on the plane, whose body is missing. It is clear that someone one on that plane committed suicide, shutting off the fuel control valve before plunging the plane into the sea. The prime suspect, George W. Bush, though very publicly running for president, disappeared the day of the murder and stayed missing for 3 days.

I am going to have to call you out here, this documentary is absolutely absurd and the assertions you make here are unfounded..more accurate documentaries like from freedom to fascism are the way to go if you want to convince anyone of anything but even films like that do not offer unequivocal proof. I agree with your support of ron paul I disagree with the amount of confidence you have vested in this poorly done and frankly ridiculous documentary...some documentaries might have their basis in fact, but most are skewed and distorted to the extent they are not believable. JFK's assassination is definitely a more likely conspiracy reality, RFK's assassination..maybe but JFK Jr. NAh
why didnt they assassinate Ted too when he challenged Jimmy Carter in the 1980 democratic primaries/convention? that is something you must consider too


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Old Post Oct-09-2008 19:48  United States
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