quote:

Originally posted by wotyzoid Just a little rough, don't you think?

not really. i would never pretend to use the same word to describe sascha dive that i use for mozart. i mean, let's just be honest with ourselves lol




anyways i don't think that it makes it necessarily bad, it just makes it necessarily different. it can still get you off just like a cheap hooker can get you off as well as a true lover.


I actually love the anonymity and ephemerality of the 'one night stand' dance music because when I go to a nightclub to dance, I like to be inundated with rhythms and tones and textures that are unique to that night and moment. this allows me to become lost and to lose the ego and concentrate on the dance.

it's not about the music itself, it's about what event. this is beautiful in itself. it's more like african drumming in that regard than like an opera...

if i went out every saturday to hear some great work of music that i can listen to at home then it wouldn't be nearly the same thing to me. this is why parties are not concerts (in my opinion)

quote:

Originally posted by nefardec not really. i would never pretend to use the same word to describe sascha dive that i use for mozart. i mean, let's just be honest with ourselves lol anyways i don't think that it makes it necessarily bad, it just makes it necessarily different. it can still get you off just like a cheap hooker can get you off as well as a true lover. I actually love the anonymity and ephemerality of the 'one night stand' dance music because when I go to a nightclub to dance, I like to be inundated with rhythms and tones and textures that are unique to that night and moment. this allows me to become lost and to lose the ego and concentrate on the dance. it's not about the music itself, it's about what event. this is beautiful in itself. it's more like african drumming in that regard than like an opera... if i went out every saturday to hear some great work of music that i can listen to at home then it wouldn't be nearly the same thing to me. this is why parties are not concerts (in my opinion)

This is exactly what i think thank you. Parties are not concepts and this modern one-night-stand cheap-minimal-techno state we are in is SOMETHING like music(IMO its not music but i wouldn't like to be called an extremist). Problem is, that not all EDM is bloody one-night-stand music. And to get a bit cheesy. Problem is that due to this "one-night-stand" music people have forgot the touch of a true lover. Problem is that these fast one-night-stands decrease the chance of finding true love.

quote:

Originally posted by PETRAN Problem is that due to this "one-night-stand" music people have forgot the touch of a true lover. Problem is that these fast one-night-stands decrease the chance of finding true love.

did you read that sufi inayat khan quote i posted?

he says the same thing. so true.

quote:

In India musicians are now dying out because of lack of appreciation. Those potentates, those Gurus, those teachers of high inspiration who lived in the past, appreciated this music. But even in India people are becoming industrialized and more materialistic, and music is dying. There are very few now of those musicians of former times who would make all those who listened spellbound; they hardly exist any longer. Among millions there are perhaps three or four and they will have vanished in a few years. Maybe one day the Western world will awaken to India's music as now the West is awakening to the poetry of the East, and beginning to appreciate such works as those of Rabindranath Tagore. There will come a time when they will ask for music of that kind too, and then it will not be found, it will be too late. But there is no doubt that if that music, which is magic and which is built on a psychological basis is introduced in the West, it will root out all such things as jazz. People seem to spoil their senses. This music is destroying their delicacy of sense. Thousands every day are dancing to jazz music and they forget the effect it has upon their spirit, upon their mind, upon their delicate senses. There was a prince of Rampur who wanted to study music with a great teacher. But the teacher knew the character of the prince who was fond of music, and he understood that many musicians would want to show their talents before him. He said, 'I can only teach you on one condition: I do not want to hear any musician who is not an accomplished artist, because your sense of music must not be destroyed; it must be preserved for delicate music, it must be able to appreciate the fine intricacies.' When the education of the public destroys the delicacy of its musical appreciation, it cannot help the fact that it does not like listening to real music but prefers jazz. Instead of going forward, it is going backward. And if music which is the central theme of the whole human culture is not helping people to go forward, it is a great pity.

edit - also i always quote this from 'der steppenwolf' by hesse

quote:

Music does not depend on being right, on having good taste and education and all that. Then what does it depend on?/On making music, Herr Haller, on making music as well and as much as possible, and with all the intensity of which one is capable. That is the point, Monsieur. Though I carried the complete works of Bach and Haydn in my head and could say the cleverest things about them, not a soul would be the better for it. But when I take hold of my mouthpiece and play a lively shimmy, whether the shimmy be good or bad, it will give people pleasure. It gets into their legs and into their blood. That's the point and that alone. Look at the faces in a dance hall at the moment when the music strikes up after a longish pause, how eyes sparkle, legs twitch and faces begin to laugh. That is why one makes music.

Last edited by nefardec on Nov-10-2008 at 23:11

quote:

Originally posted by nefardec not really. i would never pretend to use the same word to describe sascha dive that i use for mozart. i mean, let's just be honest with ourselves lol ...

Yes but that doesn't take away from the fact that it's still music. I agree mostly with what you just said but I don't think it's fair for anyone to dictate what is music and what is noise.

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i never called it 'noise' lol.

let me put it this way:

there is 'music' and there is 'Music' (capital M)

i think everyone instinctively knows the difference. i don't have to dictate anything. but if you think that the timewriter and debussy are doing the same thing, i think you're deluded


you know you can say the same thing in many fields.

there is capital A 'Architecture' being made by people like Le Corbusier, Peter Zumthor, Luis Barragan, etc

then there is 'architecture' that you find in supermarket books of single-family house plans


as SYSTEM-J said earlier, there is a critical framework or a tradition of mastery in one and not the other.

I'd say the reason for dance music being so disposable is the fact that tracks are made as tools for the most part. Tools to be used at the DJ's discretion to allow them to create an atmosphere or soundscape. That's not to say that there aren't tracks that have a very timeless quality to them, it's just that dance music is designed with a different purpose.

quote:

Originally posted by enydo I'd say the reason for dance music being so disposable is the fact that tracks are made as tools for the most part. Tools to be used at the DJ's discretion to allow them to create an atmosphere or soundscape. That's not to say that there aren't tracks that have a very timeless quality to them, it's just that dance music is designed with a different purpose.

I agree. I always say that dance music should be considered seperate- it shouldn't be lumped into "pop" like it usually is, because it operates in a way unique to itself. In most dance records, there are several minutes you aren't supposed to hear, or are supposed to hear combined with another record. The tempo is designed to be fucked with. The context of the musical interaction and the rules and boundaries of that interaction are different to normal music.

In this respect I disagree with nefardec because I think dance music has a critical framework of its own. Catalogue houses still need to be built in a certain way even if the rulebook is different to capital A Architecture. An airport thriller novel still has a rulebook even if it's different to the critical framework around a novel like Finnegan's Wake. I think there is a framework to dance music that is there to be agreed, disagreed and debated. It's very different to more sophisticated music but it doesn't mean we should surrender our quality control or the notion that there are good and bad things you can do with it. If a dance record is out of key with itself, it's an out of key record. And that's bad. It sounds wrong. The fact dance music is primarily disposable and the fact that music is ultimately subjective doesn't alter that.

___________________
Mixes:
> Maximum Elevation [Progressive House]
> DI.FM 26th Anniversary Guest Mix [Progressive House]
> Live @ Dance:Love:Hub London, 11.10.2025
> Higher Peaks [Progressive House]
> Dance:Love:Hub Afterparty (The Return) 23.11.24

Like these sets? Come see me play live at Kibosh in Manchester: https://www.instagram.com/kibosh.mcr/

quote:

Originally posted by SYSTEM-J I agree. I always say that dance music should be considered seperate- it shouldn't be lumped into "pop" like it usually is, because it operates in a way unique to itself. In most dance records, there are several minutes you aren't supposed to hear, or are supposed to hear combined with another record. The tempo is designed to be fucked with. The context of the musical interaction and the rules and boundaries of that interaction are different to normal music.

Hey J,

I think the perspective that most of Dance music is disposable has a simpler explanation than the one you are providing (if that is what you were attempting to focus on).

Although I agree that Dance music operates relative to some premises that are more or less exclusive to itself, I think the fact remains that the larger percentage of Dance music is produced with the intent of simply being non-substantive fun, rather than being the type of deliberate tools that endyo is describing.

I think the determination of 'disposable' status is pretty intuitive to both seasoned and casual listeners of Dance music. It just has that sound of not being terribly concerned with matters of aesthetics and atmosphere, being oriented towards living up to its "Dance Music" ascription in the most basic and fundamental way.

Although this 'Ultimate Dance Hits' variety of Dance music isn't the type of music that seems to be generally discussed and listened to by people on this forum, in terms of sheer numbers, I have a strong feeling it's the most common...though I have no evidence to support this, leaving this argument to be essentially speculative

Last edited by Paradox Lost on Nov-11-2008 at 00:37

quote:

Originally posted by Paradox Lost I think the perspective that most of Dance music is disposable has a simpler explanation than the one you are providing (if that is what you were attempting to focus on).

I wasn't. I have an even more simple explanation for why dance music is disposable- it's focused almost entirely around the format of the single. Singles don't sell very well- most vinyl singles only sell to DJs or collectors. Result: singles go out of print quickly, and the music is kept alive only through compilations or artist albums. Since the artist album is relatively rare in dance music it's down to the compilation to immortalise the music. The fact dance music is built around smaller labels means things sell even less, go out of print even more quickly and compilations are heard by few people. There's also only so many tracks that can make it onto compilations. The result is a vast collection of music that goes out of print within months and a large number of compilations few people buy. Most of it gets forgotten.

This nature is primarily due to the logistics of the industry and the medium of the DJ set. I argue that it should not be etched into the ethos of the music itself. Any producer who writes a track as though it's a flash in the pan mayfly of a record is a bad producer for me. This mindset is why we see crap, lazy records with no effort put into them. Dance music should fight even harder because of this temporal nature, not readily acquiesce to it. Every record I genuinely love sounds like it was made with devotion and effort, oblivious to how long it might survive. I'd argue that almost all classic dance records have that feeling. The swathes of music written to be forgotten will be forgotten.

___________________
Mixes:
> Maximum Elevation [Progressive House]
> DI.FM 26th Anniversary Guest Mix [Progressive House]
> Live @ Dance:Love:Hub London, 11.10.2025
> Higher Peaks [Progressive House]
> Dance:Love:Hub Afterparty (The Return) 23.11.24

Like these sets? Come see me play live at Kibosh in Manchester: https://www.instagram.com/kibosh.mcr/

quote:

Originally posted by SYSTEM-J I wasn't.

I also think I somewhat misunderstood endyo's post.

That was time well spent.

Jesus, Moan is great track.