If it's incentive though, then you have faith due to the incentive... not because you feel you are really risking anything whatsoever by submitting to a belief system, but because you know that, whatever happens, you'll benefit.

I wonder, were the world suddenly devoid of faith, and there as no longer any immediate incentive, social or otherwise, to hold your Catholic God - would your faith go along with it?

Somebody else answer for him.

___________________
There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio,
Than are dreamt of in your philosophy.

quote:

Originally posted by Halcyon+On+On If it's incentive though, then you have faith due to the incentive... not because you feel you are really risking anything whatsoever by submitting to a belief system, but because you know that, whatever happens, you'll benefit. I wonder, were the world suddenly devoid of faith, and there as no longer any immediate incentive, social or otherwise, to hold your Catholic God - would your faith go along with it? Somebody else answer for him.

Incentive has always existed, but my faith personally strengthened as a result of personal experience after I made the conscious decision to stop being religious... so I would argue that faith is not entirely dependent on incentive; and in fact, that "pure" faith is separable from any material incentive.

I don't believe in God because I think I'll go to heaven (though I realize I may have conveyed that earlier) - I just believe in God because I think he/she exists.

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Originally posted by Lebezniatnikov I just believe in God because I think he/she exists.

you believe god is a he-she?

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Originally posted by Moral Hazard Agreed; partially... adherents of religions are often guilty of the exact same thing; however, none of the great religions (I'll stick to the great religions because I know them, I cannot speak to what one little tribe in the deep forests of New Guinea believes) flat out vilify outsiders... even Islam despite the celebrated Qu'ranic verses referring to killing the infidels. Sure there are sects full of nuts who do exactly what you say; however, criticism of same must be directed at said sect not the over-riding belief system (as these sects are, generally, at odds with the core values of the religion they claim to be a part of... the "God hates fags" people are a good example of this).

I struggle to agree here because, at least in the case of Islam, some of the very core beliefs are oppressive.

No, not every Muslim beheads his wife like the TV station owner from upstate New York but its intimidating to see countries like Pakistan and Saudi Arabia actively trying to impose elements of Sharia Law in the UN, and equally troubling to see the issues countries like The Netherlands are dealing with: growing sects of vocal extremists. I'm sure you're all familiar with whats happened there. Geert Wilders is a prominent outspoken person on this issue.

Its obviously a less troubling issue in the United States but we have a slew of our own issues. Nevertheless, the influence exists. I work with two moderate westernized Muslims. They drink, one smokes weed, they work during prayer. It would obviously be ignorant of me to make sweeping generalizations (more so than I seemingly already have) however both hold particularly controversial beliefs. One denies the holocaust happened and believes the Jews run the world in a very conspiratorial way. The other is a bit quieter but was just out of work for a few days because he beat up his wife. She was afraid to press charges because she didn't want him to lose his job. I doubt they wish unspeakable anguish upon me just because I'm not Muslim but they're acts are justified by their holy book. Another interesting example of picking and choosing what to follow.

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Originally posted by Lebezniatnikov so I would argue that faith is not entirely dependent on incentive; and in fact, that "pure" faith is separable from any material incentive.

It's an interesting question, that's for sure - if faith without any incentive is even possible. I believe I asked Moral once and his answer was actually the opposite of yours, but my recollection is a tad hazy.

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I don't believe in God because I think I'll go to heaven (though I realize I may have conveyed that earlier) - I just believe in God because I think he/she exists.

Then our beliefs are almost the same in this respect. But why believe? Do you have to believe in the sky? It's just sort of there. But can you point to it? Where does it end?! God seems the same way to me - but I do not need faith to recognize that all of this something came from nothing at some point; faith is irrelevant in this respect, and God's existence, as an "actual" entity or merely a phantom of people's minds, is apodeictic - my faith shall have no sway.

___________________
There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio,
Than are dreamt of in your philosophy.

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Originally posted by D-res I struggle to agree here because, at least in the case of Islam, some of the very core beliefs are oppressive.

All core beliefs are oppressive - that is their nature. When you create a rule - a law - you are explicitly prohibiting an expressed action or behaviour. I mean, when you outlaw rape, how the fuck do you expect rapists to eat???

Does some of the strict Islamic law exacted in foreign countries seem oppressive in our kitschy, Western sense of freedom and justice and motals and whatever the fuck else? You bet. But what justifies ours, truly?

___________________
There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio,
Than are dreamt of in your philosophy.

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Originally posted by Halcyon+On+On I mean, when you outlaw rape, how the fuck do you expect rapists to eat???

hahhaha, awesome.

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Originally posted by Halcyon+On+On Does some of the strict Islamic law exacted in foreign countries seem oppressive in our kitschy, Western sense of freedom and justice and motals and whatever the fuck else? You bet. But what justifies ours, truly?

moral relativism is bollocks. ours are justified by reason not superstition, truly.

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Are you so certain much of our cultural arbitration is not the product of superstition? Where do we get our concepts of justice? Of what is good and evil? Why is peace considered ideal?

I will most certainly agree that Islamic law is very "superstitious", but so is Christian law - but where is such a thing practiced, outside of Utah? I sure hope people in the Middle-Far East don't judge our values and laws by what goes on in Utah!

___________________
There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio,
Than are dreamt of in your philosophy.

quote:

Originally posted by Halcyon+On+On Are you so certain much of our cultural arbitration is not the product of superstition? Where do we get our concepts of justice? Of what is good and evil? Why is peace considered ideal?

ugh, its too early for this shit! the enlightenment rejected religious influence in the public sphere, so no i dont believe our cultural arbitration is the product of superstition.

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You're right, we're hyperstitious these days. We've traded ghosts and gods for bankers and doctors. I wonder if they shall be any more deserving of our faith...

___________________
There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio,
Than are dreamt of in your philosophy.

quote:

Originally posted by Halcyon+On+On You're right, we're hyperstitious these days. We've traded ghosts and gods for bankers and doctors. I wonder if they shall be any more deserving of our faith...

Well, when bankers and doctors start expecting your undying worship whilst providing exactly nothing in return then you might have a point.

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Originally posted by Halcyon+On+On Then our beliefs are almost the same in this respect. But why believe? Do you have to believe in the sky? It's just sort of there. But can you point to it? Where does it end?! God seems the same way to me - but I do not need faith to recognize that all of this something came from nothing at some point; faith is irrelevant in this respect, and God's existence, as an "actual" entity or merely a phantom of people's minds, is apodeictic - my faith shall have no sway.

Well, the difference between God and the sky is that the senses can't directly perceive the former - that is where faith steps in.

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