You mention all these aspects in software when they are either taken care of just the same in an open environment, or they are not applicable. And further more the result is still..the same. We aren't talking about the process to make software, we are talking about the proprietary end product vs the open end product. We aren't talking about business. We are talking about which is better for the future of computing.

I'm an avid user of bittorent, whether software is free or not is not relevant to me. I can get what ever I want regardless to some price some guy put on it. And I'm betting that is the truth for most of us here. I'm not saying all this because i hate a company or i like free shit. I'm saying it because in the long run over simplification doesn't benefit anyone..catering to the masses doesn't help humanity because the masses are stupid.

You sound like a guy in the military who tries to explain what war is, when you have people who do guerrilla warfare which makes all known strategy obsolete. Case in point, no one has ever beaten guerrillas.

I get what your saying, but in the end all you have to show for it is a simple restricted product invented and catered to the lowest among its target. Many open projects cater to the most advanced of their targets. Software direction is I think very important for determining the future generations of users. Do you want the computer user in 2020 to be sole reliant on that invisible company who makes their software, and is completely and utterly dependent upon that company else they can't function. Or do you want people who all know what they are doing, are capable and do not need a dedicated company to give them the ability to work.

From what it sounds like to me, the open model and proprietary model both see the masses as simplistic, not intelligent and they need things made easy for them. Your model just wants to cater to them and that be that, the open model wants them to learn to do things themselves and contribute. And these ideas are apparent in the end product of both models.

Why do you think bitorrent exists? It requires people to contribute to receive.

___________________
i'm the alchemist without the cyst without a doubt out of the mist
dig out the grout expose the pest to take it out without the rest

they will attest my patients restorations from the best

i'm from the west i'm not an acmeist only the alchemist

quote:

I would love to see an example of something you've created.

Here's a little program I created, called "Hello Earth".

quote:

#include #include #include #include #include #include #include #include #include #include int main() { std::cout << "Hello, world!\n"; }

/idiot

quote:

Originally posted by EddieZilker Here's a little program I created, called "Hello Earth".

olololol

quote:

Originally posted by cronodevir You mention all these aspects in software when they are either taken care of just the same in an open environment, or they are not applicable. And further more the result is still..the same.

lol, they are most certainly not taken care of, nor are they part of the "process" as opposed to the "end product" - there is no possible way you could say that unless you had no clue whatsoever what the terms meant. I suggest you look some of them up before you further embarrass yourself.

I'll bet you get stuffed into lockers a lot in school.

quote:

Originally posted by cronodevir I'm an avid user of bittorent

As if this wasn't blatantly obvious. In fact your whole argument can be summed up as: I don't think I should have to pay for stuff, therefore all software should be free, and open-source software is the best because it's free, and I will make up any other bullshit I can think of to justify my w4r3z0rz.

___________________
My party schedule:
2009-02-21 - DJ Attention @ I'm So Popular
2009-06-18 - DJ Annoying @ People Need To Know Where I'll Be
2012-11-32 - DJ Insufferable ɸ Or At Least the Stalkers I Complain About
2048-06-66 - Spastic & Whocares ¶ Although I'm Actually Flattered
9999-45-81 - Tweaker Gimp ☼ I Probably Won't Even Go To This But I Have To Make Sure I Fill Up All The Available Space Here

quote:

Originally posted by EddieZilker Here's a little program I created, called "Hello Earth".

Well done! Now write one to find the first 50 Mersenne primes. Must run in under 30 seconds on a conventional x86 PC.

___________________
My party schedule:
2009-02-21 - DJ Attention @ I'm So Popular
2009-06-18 - DJ Annoying @ People Need To Know Where I'll Be
2012-11-32 - DJ Insufferable ɸ Or At Least the Stalkers I Complain About
2048-06-66 - Spastic & Whocares ¶ Although I'm Actually Flattered
9999-45-81 - Tweaker Gimp ☼ I Probably Won't Even Go To This But I Have To Make Sure I Fill Up All The Available Space Here

No one should be able to make money off of something they have an unlimited quantity of.

And also, you keep bringing up points that change nothing. Catering to the LCD doesn't help in any way. And you can't debate me on this, so you talk about the most insignificant parts of my posts, things that aren't even the point. Why bother?

Even if those points aren't part of open source..so? What is your point? Your model still hurts the development of human intelligence. Its only about getting the quick buck now and fuck all who it may harm now or in the future. Because you forget the very principle of your model. The proprietary model. And that is making money. They didn't sit around and decide "we want to make quality software and projects that help further the development of computing and those that use computers" Proprietary software is closed so that no one else can use that code to make money. Has nothing to do with usability, logic or intuitiveness, it doesn't make a project develop better [its been demonstrated to be the opposite] Its about the money.

Lets pretend its 10 years from now. And all these "issues" you have with Linux no longer exist, Linux is the new leader in desktop environments. Then what would you have to say? Because you may say Linux is clunky and hard to use, but you forget it DOES get more user friendly every year, by leaps and bounds. So what happens when it is as easy to use as windows? [its already as capable as windows]

___________________
i'm the alchemist without the cyst without a doubt out of the mist
dig out the grout expose the pest to take it out without the rest

they will attest my patients restorations from the best

i'm from the west i'm not an acmeist only the alchemist

Last edited by cronodevir on Apr-16-2009 at 02:42

quote:

Originally posted by cronodevir No one should be able to make money off of something they have an unlimited quantity of.

This is, quite possibly, the most ridiculous statement of the evening.

quote:

Originally posted by EddieZilker This is, quite possibly, the most ridiculous statement of the evening.

No it isn't. Why should someone be allowed to make money of something they can simply copy and sell again? They didn't do any work for that copy. That not extra man hours. That's nothing, that's free money. And on the internet, its only one click. So it doesn't even cause physical strain to copy it.

And further more, why should they even be allowed to have the audacity to tell people they can't copy it? You can't tell people what they can or cannot do with the data they own. If its in their possession, they own it.

Proprietary laws are arbitrary rules someone just came up with one day on the fly. And trying to enforce them is next to impossible.

___________________
i'm the alchemist without the cyst without a doubt out of the mist
dig out the grout expose the pest to take it out without the rest

they will attest my patients restorations from the best

i'm from the west i'm not an acmeist only the alchemist

quote:

Originally posted by cronodevir Catering to the LCD doesn't help in any way. And you can't debate me on this, so you talk about the most insignificant parts of my posts, things that aren't even the point.

Don't confuse the fact that I won't debate it with the idea that I can't debate it. I won't debate it because it's obviously false and you don't have a shred of evidence to support your position. Even a cursory investigation by a reasonable person would reveal that software - like every other product on this planet - is built for a specific target market and optimized to be usable and enjoyable by said market.

Ditto Eddie on the money comment. WTF? Maybe it was just worded badly but it's hard to imagine anyone being stupid enough to say something like that.

___________________
My party schedule:
2009-02-21 - DJ Attention @ I'm So Popular
2009-06-18 - DJ Annoying @ People Need To Know Where I'll Be
2012-11-32 - DJ Insufferable ɸ Or At Least the Stalkers I Complain About
2048-06-66 - Spastic & Whocares ¶ Although I'm Actually Flattered
9999-45-81 - Tweaker Gimp ☼ I Probably Won't Even Go To This But I Have To Make Sure I Fill Up All The Available Space Here

quote:

Originally posted by cronodevir No it isn't. Why should someone be allowed to make money of something they can simply copy and sell again? They didn't do any work for that copy. That not extra man hours. That's nothing, that's free money. And further more, why should they even be allowed to have the audacity to tell people they can't copy it? You can't tell people what they can or cannot do with the data they own. If its in their possession, they own it.

Hence a license to use such data is utilized to secure usage for intellectual property. I have to run, right now, but may get into the discussion tomorrow for a more detailed and nuanced explanation. Right now, however, having entertained and debunked your thoroughly sociopathic argument before, I'll leave it at, "You're wrong."

quote:

Originally posted by EddieZilker Hence a license to use such data is utilized to secure usage for intellectual property. I have to run, right now, but may get into the discussion tomorrow for a more detailed and nuanced explanation. Right now, however, having entertained and debunked your thoroughly sociopathic argument before, I'll leave it at, "You're wrong."

Or I can copy that license and give to everyone else, and what? You will do not a thing. And they will copy it and spread it. Some model you have their. And your only limiting yourself in the process. Uou put up "rules" and 'hope' others abide by them. Because there is not now, nor will their ever be, a way to enforce them. So why even try?

Diginut:

You can't debate it.

No one is talking about "Even a cursory investigation by a reasonable person would reveal that software - like every other product on this planet - is built for a specific target market and optimized to be usable and enjoyable by said market." We are talking about which model is better for human development. And you haven't even acknowledged that point. Despite it being THE point for the discussion.

I'm agreeing with you 100% But I'm saying its wrong and detrimental to the development of computing systems and humans ability to use them in the long run. And that is the point you keep skirting. Further more this simplicity in software being detrimental has ben demonstrated in EDM music. Many will not say trance blows now. But anyone from the late 80's to late 90's involved in trance WILL say that it went down hill a bit *because* it was so simple and easy to use and get FLStudio and Ableton [and other applications] to make new music.

This phenomena was also demonstrated on the Nintendo Entertainment System. That system has more than 5 times as many games as any other system around. Even today. And that is because it became easy to write games for it. And as a result there are a handful of good games, but most, most,most of them are not worth a first play through. While on more recent consoles there are less game but many more [relatively speaking] games that people enjoyed. Because its almost impossible to write bootleg games for modern consoles [cept the Dreamcast, that games console is the gateway to console modding and game modding ]

___________________
i'm the alchemist without the cyst without a doubt out of the mist
dig out the grout expose the pest to take it out without the rest

they will attest my patients restorations from the best

i'm from the west i'm not an acmeist only the alchemist

Last edited by cronodevir on Apr-16-2009 at 03:02