So you're finally reckoning Jackson as an influence now?

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If "influential" means "copied by lots of people," then Jackson was very influential. I think what some here want to say is that influence and originality are two different things. Some reckon musical importance more on the basis of originality than direct influence.

I've been talking about an influence that transcends the realm of music. An influence on pop culture itself. Michael Jackson did that and so did The Beatles.

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You can become influential by being famous, by being innovative or by being both. Michael Jackson was famous. The Beatles were famous and innovative. The Velvet Underground were innovative.

Michael Jackson was innovative in the sense that he made music more than just music.

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quote:

Originally posted by woscar Michael Jackson was innovative in the sense that he made music more than just music.

What does that mean?

He made music more than just records to listen to at home. When you think of a Michael Jackson song you immediately, and inevitably associate it with an album, a music video, and a particular dance move, routine or something else attached to the music. He sold musical products in a time when everyone else was selling records.

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quote:

Originally posted by woscar He made music more than just records to listen to at home.

And you think he was the first one to do this...how?

For decades before Michael Jackson rock musicians had been offering their fans plenty beyond "just music": namely, a lifestyle (hedonistic and recklessly anti-authority), a self-image (the poetic outsider), new philosophies (the whole New Age and Eastern spirituality bits), and a political ideology. You can't say with a straight face that people associated Bob Dylan or Jefferson Airplane, or the Beatles for that matter, with "just music." And all that is not even mentioning the extent to which pubescent sexual attraction entered into the whole "idol" phenomenon long before MJ was around.

All valid points, however none of them have anything to do with what I said. Michael Jackson never attempted to sell a lifestyle or a philosophy along with his music (up until his later stuff, when he decided to get political ). What he sold were eye-gazing products that went along with the music.

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quote:

Originally posted by woscar All valid points, however none of them have anything to do with what I said.

I didn't want to say anything. I just thought he intentionally missed your point.

quote:

Originally posted by woscar So you're finally reckoning Jackson as an influence now?

When have I actually said Jackson wasn't at all influential? Citation, please. Things I have argued:

"He didn't pioneer any genres or movements. He's not on the level of The Beatles, Kraftwerk, James Brown or their ilk."

"Take any one of them out of the equation and modern pop music would be radically different, which you just can't say about Michael Jackson."

"The fact is that people in this thread have called him a god, have pulled the jealousy card and have said he pioneered modern dancing. All of these claims and more are ludicrous, and I'm making a case in opposition to them."

"MJ was the expression of an era and for that he deserves credit. Should he dubbed a god, a creator or a genius? No."

"Apart from the moonwalk, what exactly did MJ make popular that wasn't popular before?"

Re-read my posts and you'll find I'm not denying him a claim to being influential or successful. It's a mere strawman that I've claimed Jackson wasn't influential. It's fact I've claimed he wasn't as influential as people are claiming and he shouldn't be called a "god".

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Mixes:
> Maximum Elevation [Progressive House]
> DI.FM 26th Anniversary Guest Mix [Progressive House]
> Live @ Dance:Love:Hub London, 11.10.2025
> Higher Peaks [Progressive House]
> Dance:Love:Hub Afterparty (The Return) 23.11.24

Like these sets? Come see me play live at Kibosh in Manchester: https://www.instagram.com/kibosh.mcr/

quote:

Originally posted by woscar All valid points, however none of them have anything to do with what I said. Michael Jackson never attempted to sell a lifestyle or a philosophy along with his music (up until his later stuff, when he decided to get political ). What he sold were eye-gazing products that went along with the music.

How is that? Your idea was that MJ made people associate him with more than his musical works. My point was that other people had been doing that for a long time, even if they were doing it with politics and self-image rather than videos and dance moves. Either way, the lifestyles and philosophies they were offering were totally intertwined with the music, just as MJ's dancing and videos were connected to his works.