I've never said I want extreme capitalism with no regulations..

just a little less socialism and a little more freedom.

Oh, and don't devalue the currency please. That will be all.

kthxbai.

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Originally posted by Capitalizt I've never said I want extreme capitalism with no regulations.. just a little less socialism and a little more freedom.

You want no Federal Reserve, no? You just gave me China as an example of the kind of capitalism you'r looking for, no? I just gave you the results of that said capitalism.

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Oh, and don't devalue the currency please. That will be all.

Why not? If wages earned keeps pace, what's the problem? What would you have done when the liquidity freeze stopped all inter-bank lending and trillions were being wiped out of the money supply (deflation)?

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Originally posted by Krypton You just gave me China as an example of the kind of capitalism you'r looking for, no?

No..read it again. I'm just pointing out that capitalism isn't as bad as extreme socialism. You can't equate the two. One is liberty with rising prosperity and lots of inequality. One is complete equality but widespread misery.

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Why not? If wages earned keeps pace, what's the problem? What would you have done when the liquidity freeze stopped all inter-bank lending and trillions were being wiped out of the money supply (deflation)?

Because wages don't keep pace and never have...and because inflation discourages healthy economic behaviors like SAVING and planning for the future. When you devalue the currency, you are punishing thrift and encouraging excessive risk taking and speculation..the sort of crap that got us into this mess in the first place! A strong dollar encourages long term planning and prudent decision making. A stable value for the currency allows for stable (healthy) growth..the opposite of the frenzied pill popping bubblemania we've had over the past 2 rate cutting cycles (first the tech bubble, then housing).. Aside from the chaos the fed causes in these markets, the standard of living today is actually lower than it has been in decades. Regular citizens are losing the battle against inflation because the ones who mainly benefit from the new "money" created are those who get to spend it first, the banks and megacorporations.. And despite the privileged status they've held, they still managed to screw things up and are now sucking on uncle sam's nipple again. And while you may not feel it now, they are bleeding you and your children dry. Our leaders are so intent on avoiding a correction that they are guaranteeing us agonizing levels of future inflation with this insane deficit spending..

When I say we are postponing the inevitable, this is what I'm talking about. Sure, we can avoid your dreaded 'credit crunch' by throwing a multi-trillion dollar party now..but the bill WILL come due eventually and it needs to be paid one way or another.

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Originally posted by Capitalizt This isn't about radical libertarianism...It's about common sense. If Citi fails, we won't face another great depression and it won't be catastrophic krypt...It will be very painful recession, yes..but it desperately needs to happen. Prices NEED to fall..unemployment in the financial sector NEEDS to rise...and the bubble that popped NEEDS to DEFLATE completely so all the malinvestment can be cleansed from the system. It will be very ugly but it will also be TEMPORARY. The economy is diseased and a painful recession is the only cure for it. All of these bailouts and interventions are like giving aspirin to a suffering cancer patient. Sure it might make him feel better for a while but it really isn't addressing the underlying problem, and the longer we refuse the much needed (and unpleasant) treatment, the worse the patient will be.

+1

I had an economics professor in business school who said, "if its too big to fail, then its too big!"

There seems to be a general belief among officials that they can somehow prevent the business cycle from occurring when in reality they can only push-out the downside for so long, inevitably making that much more painful when it finally does take hold. People seem to forget that recessions are healthy. Painful yes, but healthy too. They allow resources to be reallocated to their most efficient use while cleansing the system of waste and inefficiency. Unfortunately, the American consumer has saved next to nothing while leveraging himself to the hilt and is ill-prepared for a downturn of any significant duration. And now, when the economy that is 70% driven by consumer spending needs a lift, the consumer is retrenching and saving again. Savings are good, but they are also a headwind to economic growth as that now represents money that won't find its way through the economy.

Citigroup announced they are splitting in two.

Nice call Krypton!

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Originally posted by Capitalizt No..read it again. I'm just pointing out that capitalism isn't as bad as extreme socialism. You can't equate the two. One is liberty with rising prosperity and lots of inequality. One is complete equality but widespread misery.

I'm sorry but I'm going to have to disagree. Too much of anything is a bad thing. It doesn't have to be so black and white either. You can have rising prosperity with a degree of equality. Laissez-faire capitalism, unfortunately, cares not for any degree of equality. Under such a system, the working classes are at the whim of the executive class. As I said before, worker's rights are nil. You never addressed that. Laissez-faire capitalism allows children to work in sweat shops, prevents unions from forming, and cares little for workers' safety or compensation.

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Because wages don't keep pace and never have...and because inflation discourages healthy economic behaviors like SAVING and planning for the future. When you devalue the currency, you are punishing thrift and encouraging excessive risk taking and speculation..the sort of crap that got us into this mess in the first place! A strong dollar encourages long term planning and prudent decision making. A stable value for the currency allows for stable (healthy) growth..the opposite of the frenzied pill popping bubblemania we've had over the past 2 rate cutting cycles (first the tech bubble, then housing).. Aside from the chaos the fed causes in these markets, the standard of living today is actually lower than it has been in decades. Regular citizens are losing the battle against inflation because the ones who mainly benefit from the new "money" created are those who get to spend it first, the banks and megacorporations.. And despite the privileged status they've held, they still managed to screw things up and are now sucking on uncle sam's nipple again. And while you may not feel it now, they are bleeding you and your children dry. Our leaders are so intent on avoiding a correction that they are guaranteeing us agonizing levels of future inflation with this insane deficit spending..

You have two options. Inflation and deflation. I already know you want our economy to operate on deflation. Have you examined the effects of deflation? In a nutshell, it results in a stagnant economy. Low inflation does not.

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Originally posted by Joss Weatherby Citigroup announced they are splitting in two. Nice call Krypton!

I didn't call a split up of the company though that'd be awesome if I did... I just threw it out there as a possibility for them. However I did trump them as the ultimate contrarian pick of the financial sector, so only time will tell if I am right. You want to put money in bankrupt WAMU as a contrarian pick. I say, if I was you, put it in Citi because they were going bankrupt, were saved from it, and now have the chance to restructure; this is a chance WAMU never had.

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Originally posted by Krypton Under such a system, the working classes are at the whim of the executive class. As I said before, worker's rights are nil. You never addressed that. Laissez-faire capitalism allows children to work in sweat shops, prevents unions from forming, and cares little for workers' safety or compensation.

What is to stop workers from forming unions under a capitalist system? Nothing. Capitalism is nothing more than a lack of coercion..a lack of government force. If consenting adults at a large employer want to form a union, they are free to do so..but the employer also has the right not to hire them or to cave to their every demand. To claim otherwise would be to violate his right to his own property. As far as sweatshops go, yes they did exist in the past, but they were not phased out by decree...They were stopped because American society moved beyond the need for them. Once the basic infrastructure was built and immigrants stopped flooding the cities, a natural equilibrium was reached and conditions improved.. This happens all around the world. In countries that are rapidly industrializing (like China), there is little choice but to work in bad conditions and even to have children working in factories. This may be "immoral" by our standards, but would it really be more compassionate to remove employment altogether from those 3rd world countries? What will become of the families then? If you want to a free society to grow, you need to accept the imperfections that come along with that growth.

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You have two options. Inflation and deflation. I already know you want our economy to operate on deflation. Have you examined the effects of deflation? In a nutshell, it results in a stagnant economy. Low inflation does not.

I can accept 1-2% inflation as necessary, but at the rate we are going, 11-12% is going to be the norm a few years from now. All I'm saying is hit the brakes..hit the f*ckin brakes before we go off the cliff..but this is not happening. We are accelerating towards the precipice faster than ever and I don't know why you can't see it. Our government is going bankrupt...the value of paper money is going down the toilet.. People in Washington have the inflation mindset and are just buying artificial prosperity with cheap dollars.

Debt Clock

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Originally posted by Capitalizt I can accept 1-2% inflation as necessary, but at the rate we are going, 11-12% is going to be the norm a few years from now. All I'm saying is hit the brakes..hit the f*ckin brakes before we go off the cliff..but this is not happening. We are accelerating towards the precipice faster than ever and I don't know why you can't see it. Our government is going bankrupt...the value of paper money is going down the toilet.. People in Washington have the inflation mindset and are just buying artificial prosperity with cheap dollars. Debt Clock

if you have huge student debt, say 200K, a well paying job that will keep pace with inflation (tax lawyer), inflation in the range of 6-8% is actually a good thing. If my wages keep pace I hope we have a few years of inflation.

does capitalizt just pop into the PDD to whine about inflation?

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Capitalism is nothing more than a lack of coercion..a lack of government force.

lol. capitalism is one of the most coercive structures ever created by man.

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No offense against Capitalizt, but believing a deflationary economy is a good thing really is an ignorant view.

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