quote:

To say that I can't comment on living in the U.S. unless I've lived there doesn't really make much sense. I can look at a country and make judgements based on what I know without first hand information. If I were to say that living in Iraq would be awful would that also be unreasonable? And I would like to point out to you as well Dave that you are in a lucky class of people. If you were a poor minority, which a lot of people in the states are, you would probably feel different. Or if you were among all those people tossed in jail for smoking a joint. You have to be able to look at a place objectively regardless of how well you do. I live a good middle class life here, but I understand that this still isn't a great place. That their are still a lot of people starving on the streets and being beaten by the police and having their rights violated. I would like to reiderate that Canada is not an amazing place in any sense. I never was trying to argue that. All I was saying was that in my opinion the U.S. is a quite bad place. And I would like to point out that the U.S. as a country is much richer then us. You guys have the resources to have an amazing education system, an amazing medicare system, etc. but instead the money is put into jails, and fighting "terror" and tax cuts for the rich. And none of this is to say Americans are bad people. I just feel that as a country their are a lot of serious problems.

that was very stereotypical about the jails. and also, you dont go to jail for smoking a joint. i have read through your other posts and your argument about america being a bad place to live has no backing. i guess it is just your personal opinion, but you dont get an opinion for that. what dave was trying to say is, how can you have that opinion, if all you base it off is statistics and bullshit like that.
are you a fuckin computer or something?
because that is what computers do, they crunch up numbers and make rankings based on it.
do i think canada is a good place to live? fuck if i know, i never been there before.

as for the US, i personally like living here, i have lived here my whole life

everyone is entitled to an opinion, but if you dont know what you are talking about, then you are not entitled to one. and just becuase you know a bunch of statistics doesnt mean you know what it is like to live in a country.

also, the rich people are taxed a lot. 50%

quote:

Originally posted by dj adagnitio And none of this is to say Americans are bad people. I just feel that as a country their are a lot of serious problems.

I too agree we have a lot of serious problems...and maybe it's more apparent looking from the outside in???

I mean, really, Canada (portions there of) are so (mad) about being part of Canada...they hold votes to secede...i.e. Quebec. It's obviously a huge problem if you are voting to leave the country...be it for political, ethnic, or economical reasons. Also, I travel to BC about 3-10 times a week...plenty of sentiment there too, since all the tax money goes ALL the way to Ottawa and doesn't come back as well as Eastern policy not fitting Western issues. Not necessarily a majority..but enough to stir the pot.
Also, the newspapers we browse through that are left on the airplane are chock full of just as much bashing of this and that as in the US papers about our country....
These are just a couple of the many things I see looking from the outside in.


I love Canada, and the people are great...east to west...but...like us in the U.S. looks like we both have some serious issues.
All I say is before you go bashing on someone else, no matter how legitimate...might want to look at yourself and see if there are "some" similarities.

Just a thought.

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quote:

Ok, I see your point now I suppose. I thought you were trying to make some kind of infantile USA vs. Canada argument.... I agree about the tax breaks for the rich. They should pay the most taxes, and not complain about it. That's why it's scary that so many sheeple would jump to support Arnold for gov just because of his name, and not even take into consideration his policies. I also agree that the "war on drugs" is a miserable failure, and was so from the start. It's a shame so many politicians are afraid to admit this because they fear being seen as "weak." For simple use of pot though, you are not given a prison sentence. I know because I've had friends in that predicament. Yes you are arrested though. I've also seen a documentary on how minorities are treated differently by the legal system, and it's just not right. Yes if I were a poor person living on the streets, I wouldn't think this is such a great place. Don't all countries have poor and homeless though? That's where the poverty statistics come into play, but then unless they are all compiled using a universal standard (I'm not sure that they are), they are more or less not very useful or comparable. As for the state of Texas considering changing school days to 4 days per week to fund more prisons, that just smells like spin to me. Post the article where you got that information.

I was never at any point trying to make a Canada vs. the U.S. argument. I wasn't the one who brought Canada into this. And still now I am only using it as a basis for comparison.

The war on drugs is absolutelly ridiculous. All it has done is hurt the people of Columbia, violate the rights of Americans and waste the United State's money. Oh and it's also created some jobs. The way minorities are treated is appalling here as well, although I don't believe it is quite to the same degree.

It's true that all countries have a poor and a homeless but between different places their are three essential differences. One is how many of each their are. This differs a lot from place to place. For example in Cuba their are virtually no homeless people and no poor people compared to the U.S. where their are fair sized amounts of both. The second big difference is how those classes are treated by the country. Some places have large support networks in place to help out the poor and homeless people, whereas some do not. A good example of an action that is very important is social housing, which sadly is lacking in most places. Sweden, I believe, is one good example of somewhere with a very good social housing program. The third important thing is how poor the poor are and how rich the rich are. At this point in time their are only three countries in the world where the gap between the two is shrinking: Belgum, The Netherlands and Holland.

I look around for that article a bit later, if my memory serves me I have seen the texas school thing listed in a couple of places.

and once again this is not to say I hold anything against Americans as people.

quote:

Originally posted by hadi ****** that was very stereotypical about the jails. and also, you dont go to jail for smoking a joint. i have read through your other posts and your argument about america being a bad place to live has no backing. i guess it is just your personal opinion, but you dont get an opinion for that. what dave was trying to say is, how can you have that opinion, if all you base it off is statistics and bullshit like that. are you a fuckin computer or something? because that is what computers do, they crunch up numbers and make rankings based on it. do i think canada is a good place to live? fuck if i know, i never been there before. as for the US, i personally like living here, i have lived here my whole life everyone is entitled to an opinion, but if you dont know what you are talking about, then you are not entitled to one. and just becuase you know a bunch of statistics doesnt mean you know what it is like to live in a country.

I am very confident that what I've said about U.S. jails is 100% true. Conditions in many don't come close to meeting universal human rights standards. People are assaulted, people die. These things are facts. To reiterate my point I'm not trying to make an argument for how amazing Canada is. Our jail system is just as bad.

And people probably do not go to jail very often for smoking a joint. But sometimes they have before and sometimes they do. I was trying to make a point about how ridiculous your justice system is. I was not trying to argue as a matter of fact that marijuana possession carries a life sentence.

And how can you call statistics and other such information bullshit? they are definitelly the most effective way to make a judgement about something. When you just judge things on what you yourself have seen you don't even get a fraction of the real picture.

I do know what Im talking about. And I can definitelly make reasonable judgements based on statistics and the like.

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quote:

Originally posted by PhloTron All I say is before you go bashing on someone else, no matter how legitimate...might want to look at yourself and see if there are "some" similarities. Just a thought.

And a good thought at that good sir. Canada has problems, the US has problems, the UK has problems, Australia has problems, etc...

Nobody is perfect, except maybe the people living on the Galapagos...oh wait, there isn't anyone living there...so yeah, nobody is perfect.

But if you feel you must attack another country in a comparative analysis, please take a couple of minutes to do some background research. You are, after all, already surfing the web and Google is just a click away.

MrS

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quote:

Originally posted by dj adagnitio I was never at any point trying to make a Canada vs. the U.S. argument. I wasn't the one who brought Canada into this. And still now I am only using it as a basis for comparison. The war on drugs is absolutelly ridiculous. All it has done is hurt the people of Columbia, violate the rights of Americans and waste the United State's money. Oh and it's also created some jobs. The way minorities are treated is appalling here as well, although I don't believe it is quite to the same degree. It's true that all countries have a poor and a homeless but between different places their are three essential differences. One is how many of each their are. This differs a lot from place to place. For example in Cuba their are virtually no homeless people and no poor people compared to the U.S. where their are fair sized amounts of both. The second big difference is how those classes are treated by the country. Some places have large support networks in place to help out the poor and homeless people, whereas some do not. A good example of an action that is very important is social housing, which sadly is lacking in most places. Sweden, I believe, is one good example of somewhere with a very good social housing program. The third important thing is how poor the poor are and how rich the rich are. At this point in time their are only three countries in the world where the gap between the two is shrinking: Belgum, The Netherlands and Holland. I look around for that article a bit later, if my memory serves me I have seen the texas school thing listed in a couple of places. and once again this is not to say I hold anything against Americans as people. I am very confident that what I've said about U.S. jails is 100% true. Conditions in many don't come close to meeting universal human rights standards. People are assaulted, people die. These things are facts. To reiterate my point I'm not trying to make an argument for how amazing Canada is. Our jail system is just as bad. And people probably do not go to jail very often for smoking a joint. But sometimes they have before and sometimes they do. I was trying to make a point about how ridiculous your justice system is. I was not trying to argue as a matter of fact that marijuana possession carries a life sentence. And how can you call statistics and other such information bullshit? they are definitelly the most effective way to make a judgement about something. When you just judge things on what you yourself have seen you don't even get a fraction of the real picture. I do know what Im talking about. And I can definitelly make reasonable judgements based on statistics and the like.

what i am saying is statistics are not a valid point on making a judgement about living in any country. have you opinion about it if you wish, but you havent lived here, so i dont give two shits about your opinion on that subject (not to be rude or anything). i also agree the justice system is messed up. maybe all the laws arent too great, but what happens when you breka the law, you get punished, and i am sure it is the same in canada

edit: dont take it as a rude post, i am just trying to argue against your point. how can you honestly make a judgement about a place you have never been? sure i havent seen a lot of stuff that goes on around here, but i have seen quite a bit, compared to you who only reads the statistics, do you see my point?

quote:

Originally posted by dj adagnitio And how can you call statistics and other such information bullshit? they are definitelly the most effective way to make a judgement about something. I do know what Im talking about. And I can definitelly make reasonable judgements based on statistics and the like.

Well then make sure that your statistics are accurate. So far, I haven't seen you actually provide any references for your statistics, and when I have corrected the innaccurate statistics you provided, you change the nature of your argument to state that the statistic in question cannot be "clearly defined." So are we selectively using the statistics that support our arguments and ignoring the ones that don't?

On that note:

quote:

It's true that all countries have a poor and a homeless but between different places their are three essential differences. One is how many of each their are. This differs a lot from place to place. For example in Cuba their are virtually no homeless people and no poor people compared to the U.S. where their are fair sized amounts of both.

http://www.undp.org/hdr2003/indicator/cty_f_CUB.html

Perhaps you should alert the UN. It seems that they are under the mistaken impression that Cuba has significant poverty levels to warrant a ranking in the poverty index only slightly better than Singapore, Jordan, or Panama.

Also very odd that 13% of the Cuban population is undernourished despite the fact that everybody has money!

http://www.undp.org/hdr2003/indicator/indic_60_2_1.html

I guess food isn't a very high priority to some people.

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Last edited by occrider on Aug-25-2003 at 15:16

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quote:

Originally posted by occrider Also very odd that 13% of the Cuban population is undernourished despite the fact that everybody has money! http://www.undp.org/hdr2003/indicator/indic_60_2_1.html I guess food isn't a very high priority to some people.

haha, good one man, you just turned my day around with that one =), thnx

Are you going to try and dispute my saying that poverty levels can be measured in many different ways? As so this makes them hard to define. I don't really see how that can be disputed?

As for Cuba, you misinterpreted what I said. I did not mean that people in Cuba aernt poor. The issue I was discussing wasn't how rich countries are it was the gap between rich and poor. In Cuba there are a vary few number of very rich elites who control a large amount of the wealth. Beyond them however their are very small class distinctions, there isnt a huge difference in wealth amongst the rest of the population. Compared to the U.S. where even if you take out the extremes there is still a big difference between the bottom and the top.

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Are you going to try and dispute my saying that poverty levels can be measured in many different ways? As so this makes them hard to define. I don't really see how that can be disputed?

As for Cuba, you misinterpreted what I said. I did not mean that people in Cuba aernt poor. The issue I was discussing wasn't how rich countries are it was the gap between rich and poor. In Cuba there are a vary few number of very rich elites who control a large amount of the wealth. Beyond them however their are very small class distinctions, there isnt a huge difference in wealth amongst the rest of the population. Compared to the U.S. where even if you take out the extremes there is still a big difference between the bottom and the top.

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I'm not arguing that poverty can't be defined many ways at all. You provided the incorrect statistic in your criticism of the US:

quote:

I am by no means saying that 90% of Americans live in poverty, or that even 50% do. I believe the statistic is probably somewhere near 30%, which is still very high.

After which Hadi ****** stated that statistics alone are not an effective measure for determining whether a country is good to live in. You then stated that:

quote:

And how can you call statistics and other such information bullshit? they are definitelly the most effective way to make a judgement about something. I do know what Im talking about. And I can definitelly make reasonable judgements based on statistics and the like.

Then I corrected your statistic and provided Canada's for comparison. At which point you then proceed to debunk the use of the poverty statistic as an effective measure because it is not clearly definable. This resulted in my confusion as to why you would even use the statistic to begin with . Which prompted me to ask the question "So are we selectively using the statistics that support our arguments and ignoring the ones that don't?" And now that I think about my question, I'm doubly confused (and admittedly somewhat amused) because the statistic you're selectively using and the statistic you're selectively ignoring are the same statistic.

Now, with respect to Cuba, if you're arguing that there is very little income inequality (and I don't know how you know this because the Cuban government doesn't appear to release these statistics ... I checked), and that there is very little wage discrepancy, then I think we can conclude that nearly the entire population makes relatively the same amount of money as those 13% who are malnourished. Therefore there is very little inequality in the country because everybody is equally poor (unless malnourishment is a poorly defined measure as well). Sooooo in conclusion, it is better that everybody be equally poor than to not be equal at all ... ahhh i love communism!

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