quote:

Originally posted by Yoepus the odd part is this time a non-palestinian/israeli changed the thread

Actually, you posted the first post on Israel/Palestine in this thread.
Somehow it seems that the Zionists keep bringing up the topic...

quote:

Originally posted by Yoepus If they had overwhelming force and presented an alternative to genoicde then yes.

you are just a covard not all people thinks like you though, especially not the arabs...

quote:

I'd rather live then die, how about you?

yes that is my choice too, cool we agree on something!

To all those shouting for massive vengeful attacks against al-Qaida (or merely Muslims which it will inevitably be)...

Has this approach worked for Israel?

No amount of terrorising the Palestinians has convinced them to give up the cause has it? By your logic, the Palestinians would have given up a long time ago, and Israel would be allowed to live in peace...

...yet the situation just gets worse and worse and worse, and more and more people lose their lives every week...

...is this what we want for our countries?

George:

I'll quote what I wrote on page 4 or 5 since it's somewhat related to your question.

quote:

Originally posted by St_Andrew terror will exists as long as the problems exists. no matter how hard you try to eliminate it. quote: occrider: This may apply to situations such as Palestine, Chechnya, etc., but we shouldn't attempt to generalize all sources for terrorism and apply a one-size fits all solution to everything. You're setting yourself up for failure. Like I've been saying, the so called "problem" that is the source of Al-Qaeda's existence is the growth of western culture in the middle east and its departure from complete religious fundementalism. Their overall cause is NOT supported by the majority, since their appeal is towards extremism (which is by definition not of the majority) Therefore, there really is no solution to their "problem". The only true way to resolve the situation is through the intelligent use of force and force only. Now how you go about applying that force (through greater involvement of other countries, eliminating rogue nations supporting these groups, etc.) is the real question.

So basically the same logic and reasoning that may be applied to Israel/Palestine does not and should not be applied to combatting Al-Qaeda. Not all acts of terrorism are done to correct some grave injustice ... Al-Qaeda's terrorism is done in order to acheive extremist political goals.

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Retro ...

quote:

Originally posted by George Smiley To all those shouting for massive vengeful attacks against al-Qaida (or merely Muslims which it will inevitably be)... Has this approach worked for Israel?

Yes it has.

quote:

No amount of terrorising the Palestinians has convinced them to give up the cause has it? By your logic, the Palestinians would have given up a long time ago, and Israel would be allowed to live in peace...

What do you mean no amount, we wouldn't know if 'any amount' won't convience the Palestinians. I for one still believe, that if Israel were to slaughter the entire inhabitants of a neighborhood a suicide bomber originate from, it would probably convience them to stop terror attacks.

Of course Israel will never use such force and so we will never know for certain, but you can not make an authoritarian statement like "No amount of terrorising the Palestinians [will succeed]" which is basically unprovable.

Its your opinion on that matter, and its my opinion that it is wrong.

quote:

...yet the situation just gets worse and worse and worse, and more and more people lose their lives every week...

I don't think the situation is getting worse and worse, less and less people lose thier lives every week. Recall the first year of the second Palestinian uprising, Israeli death tolls were much higher than the second year of the uprising. I attribute this in part to the success of Israeli security operations against the Palestinians. What do you attribute this to?

quote:

...is this what we want for our countries?

Please recall also that in the absence of Israeli security operations against the Palestinians terrorism still existed. During the heigh of Oslo, even under the leadership of Rabin, hundreds of Israeli were being massacred in the streets.

I defintely can't say for certain that using force against terrorism will bring an end to terrorism, I believe this right now, but the end might be turnout different than the path. What I can say for certain is that in the case of Israel, and Islamo-facisit terrorist groups, appeasing them has proven itself not to work.

So when faced with an two option, one proven not to work, and the other unproven but it might work, I'll go with the unproven but might just work one... I know though that according to your 'believes' you would chose the method proven not to work.

And returning back to topic, Spain has been dealing with the same brand of islamo-facist terrorism. It is not dealing with European style terrorist like the ETA or IRA, islamo-facist are a different mold. And to date, no one has successfully appeased an islamo-facist group to obliteration.

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You all seriously believe that if you slaughter enough people they will give up? Seriously? And even if you did believe that, you are willing to carry those acts out?

Where on Earth did civilisation disappear to? We have decended into savagary. With attitudes like this, can we morally criticise murderers like bin Laden, when we ourselves, are far far far worse?

quote:

Originally posted by George Smiley You all seriously believe that if you slaughter enough people they will give up? Seriously? And even if you did believe that, you are willing to carry those acts out? Where on Earth did civilisation disappear to? We have decended into savagary. With attitudes like this, can we morally criticise murderers like bin Laden, when we ourselves, are far far far worse?

Of course not. They aren't ever going to give up until they accomplish their political agenda. But that doesn't mean we should abandon our efforts to eliminate terrorism. Using that line of logic why have a police force? That's not going to stop people from committing crimes. And it's impossible to eliminate all the reasons why people committ crimes ... people desire the things they do not have and sometimes use force to get it. You keep glossing over the fact that Al-Qaeda's existence is not rooted in correcting a grave injustice ... it's a movement derived from ideaological political goals ... goals they choose not to attain through democratic means and political activism. Let's say Al-Qaeda's goals were not based upon attaining religious fundamentalism ... let's say their goal is to kill all blacks and Mexicans, and since they cannot accomplish their ideaology through democracy and political activism, they do so through terrorism. Do we go to the root of the problem and give in to their demands? In as much as appeasement did not work to satisfy the political ideaologies of nazism (unless you appease them by letting them rule over you) it's not going to work with Al-Qaeda.

Dammit, I hate it when I godwin myself.

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Retro ...

quote:

Originally posted by George Smiley You all seriously believe that if you slaughter enough people they will give up? Seriously? And even if you did believe that, you are willing to carry those acts out?

I seriously believe this, yes. As to actually willing to carry those acts out, no I wouldn't, and I wouldn't want my government to carry them out.

But believing something and willing to do it are two completely different things. Do I believe I could be a mutli-millionare if I became a drug lord? Yes. Will I do this? Never.

I mean.. I think it is quiet proven in our history that if you slaughter enough people they will give up.

A good example of this is the USA's use of overwhelming force (dropping nukes) against the Japanese. This changed their fanatical views to intelligent rational thinking in less then a week. Impresive huh?

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quote:

Originally posted by Yoepus I seriously believe this, yes. As to actually willing to carry those acts out, no I wouldn't, and I wouldn't want my government to carry them out. But believing something and willing to do it are two completely different things. Do I believe I could be a mutli-millionare if I became a drug lord? Yes. Will I do this? Never. I mean.. I think it is quiet proven in our history that if you slaughter enough people they will give up. A good example of this is the USA's use of overwhelming force (dropping nukes) against the Japanese. This changed their fanatical views to intelligent rational thinking in less then a week. Impresive huh?

You preach democracy and diplomacy yet condone the use of Nuclear warfare to change public opinion?

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-MARCO V

quote:

it's a movement derived from ideaological political goals ... goals they choose not to attain through democratic means and political activism

I can see where you are coming from, but you are overlooking the important role of religion in all this. No, they are not fighting to overturn a grave injustice, but that is from our perspective as democratically unreligiously(?) minded people.

I dont know what makes the mind of a religious fanatic tick, cos I'm not even religious, let alone fanatical (apart from over Sheffield United that is)!

For all we know, they could be just as highly motivated and determined as those fighting against a grave injustice, due to their religios beliefs. Religion over rules logic and reason where religion is intense enough.

Look at other religious fanatics like the Settlers in Israel (sorry but its a good example even if it is an Israeli example!!). They believe the West Bank is rightfully theirs because it was promised to them by God. Is that any different than al-Qaida's ideology in principle? And there have been plenty of examples of Jewish terrorism from Neo-Zionist organisations (not as much as Islamic terrorism, but then, they have a sovereign country doing their terrorism for them many would argue)

Just because in our minds, al-Qaida is not fighting a 'just cause', it in no way means that they wont be just as determined as we would expect if we thought their cause may be considered just. In fact, due to their religious beliefs, they might (probably) think that their cause is as much of a just cause as what we might consider a just cause in their minds, which is what is important here.

quote:

A good example of this is the USA's use of overwhelming force (dropping nukes) against the Japanese. This changed their fanatical views to intelligent rational thinking in less then a week. Impresive huh?

No actually, that is an extremely bad example to use. Germany was defeated before Japan surrendered...there was no way Japan was going to win. In fact, it has now come to light in various reports and sources, that America was well aware Japan was going to surrender days before the first bomb was dropped.

No, the bomb was not meant to influence the Japanese, but the USSR...

quote:

Originally posted by Cyrus King You preach democracy and diplomacy yet condone the use of Nuclear warfare to change public opinion?

Yes, thats exaclty right. Fear me! Fear me! MUHAHAHAHA

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