Wouldn't you say though, that abortion is the ultimate avoidance of accountability?

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Originally posted by Theresa Choosing to give up your child because you cannot own up, change your life and actually try to take care of the kid is selfish to me. I don't really believe they're looking out for the best interests of the child, but more the best interests of themselves. They know that if they kept the child, they would have to change. If they didn't change, they know they would feel guilty for providing a shitty life. Those are selfish reasons. Knowing you are pregnant and are not going to keep the child, but will not sacrifice your own convictions to have the child aborted, and instead would rather take the chance of sacrificing SOMEONE ELSE'S ENTIRE life, is selfish.

The scenario I gave, specifically, too broke to afford another child, hits home for me. Why? I was not adopted, but seriously, there are 7 kids, and there was never enough money JUST to survive. My sperm and egg donor relied on the church (the mormon church as they are mormons) for food, and a good number of times, to pay the bills. Given that not everyone has that luxury, you could easily be SELFLESS, because you are thinking about the BEST interests of the child at stake and also the potential for a couple to have a kid that they would not otherwise be able to have, and put the child up for adoption. No matter how you want to look at it, giving your child up for adoption properly, will result in placement with a couple that can't have kids immediately if you start the process way before the child is to be born.

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Your last statement further lends to my reasoning that abortion is a better choice that putting children up for adoption.

While I don't disagree that abortion is the best first defense against this situation, there are also other alternatives that will result in just as good of an outcome.

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Originally posted by bas Dual exhaust tips on dual exhaust = QUAD EXHAUST = 300 gain in horsepower. Duh

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Originally posted by bas Undies with a dickhole aren't good for guys. Your balls can get caught in them. That's why I prefer to go over the gate instead of through the fence.

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Originally posted by jennypie Wouldn't you say though, that abortion is the ultimate avoidance of accountability?

No. You are taking accountability for your actions by preventing a pending result that has not yet happened.

Abandoning your child in my opinion is the ultimate avoidance of accountability. The child exists, you create it, it is there... flesh and blood, alive and needing to be taken care of. Then you bail out.

To me that is like saying not buying a kitten is worse than buying a kitten and not taking care of it.

Do you see what I mean?

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Originally posted by jennypie Wouldn't you say though, that abortion is the ultimate avoidance of accountability?

Therein, as the bard says, lies the rub. That's the #1 most compelling argument against abortion in my opinion.

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Originally posted by Theresa No. You are taking accountability for your actions by preventing a pending result that has not yet happened. Abandoning your child in my opinion is the ultimate avoidance of accountability. The child exists, you create it, it is there... flesh and blood, alive and needing to be taken care of. Then you bail out. To me that is like saying not buying a kitten is worse than buying a kitten and not taking care of it. Do you see what I mean?

I see what you mean, but I disagree.

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Originally posted by gehzumteufel The scenario I gave, specifically, too broke to afford another child, hits home for me. Why? I was not adopted, but seriously, there are 7 kids, and there was never enough money JUST to survive. My sperm and egg donor relied on the church (the mormon church as they are mormons) for food, and a good number of times, to pay the bills. Given that not everyone has that luxury, you could easily be SELFLESS, because you are thinking about the BEST interests of the child at stake and also the potential for a couple to have a kid that they would not otherwise be able to have, and put the child up for adoption. No matter how you want to look at it, giving your child up for adoption properly, will result in placement with a couple that can't have kids immediately if you start the process way before the child is to be born. While I don't disagree that abortion is the best first defense against this situation, there are also other alternatives that will result in just as good of an outcome.

Why are you giving up the child? Because you cannot provide it a good life and would feel guilty keeping it and providing it a shitty one. Sure, there is a certain level of selflessness, but not entirely. Ultimately they would give it up to ease their own conscience.

While saying that, as I have stated many times before, I understand that life isn't perfect and shit happens.

Let me clarify as I think many people seem to be focussed on this idea that I am anti-adoption. I THINK ADOPTION IS A GOOD THING FOR THE SOCIETY IN WHICH WE LIVE where people do not take ownership for themselves. However, I don't think it is the way it SHOULD be.

I am absolutely not trying to debate that adoption does not result in good things (take Ange for example.) I know it does... and I have full intentions to adopt when I am older.

What I am trying to say is that in an ideal world, people should take ownership for themselves and their actions. If you cannot raise your own children, then prevent the pregnancy. I don't think it should ever get to the point where you are abandoning your child in the first place.

Now can someone please debate with me why that is so wrong, which is what my point was in the first place?

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Originally posted by jennypie I see what you mean, but I disagree.

Care to explain why?

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Originally posted by Theresa That has to be the most idiotic thing you have ever said on these forums. Do you know how much of an ass you sound like?

like i give a fuck about your illogical, irrational and generally idiotic opinions. so you're allowed to buy a new pair of jeans and think "man, my bum looks good in these" but im not allowed to say "gee, im smart" despite the overwhelming evidence to support such a fact? what, are we all meant to sit down and play all humble-like whilst try-hards like yourself spout nonsense?

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Originally posted by Theresa My assessment of what exactly? Please explain what "assessment" is wrong.

your assessment of your own arguments. they are routinely illogical or come from the heart and not the head. your posts in the marijuana or circumcisision threads are perfect examples.

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Originally posted by Theresa My *opinion* that people should not be putting their children up for adoption? Or the facts that I have provided to justify why I don't think it is right?

Your "facts" are irrelevant. You never think of the bigger picture when you post your admirable but still erroneous opinions. Like, how would you prevent the wholesale dumping of unwanted children? You havent justified why you think it is ok to prevent screened couples from adopting children and providing a better life. Who are you to tell parents what they can and cannot do with their own offspring, based upon a bunch of statistics?

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Originally posted by Theresa This has nothing to do with emotions... it has to do with facts and real lives. I have been very rational and logical, and personally think I have done a good job in providing more than ample reason to have the opinion that I do. You on the other hand continue to spout off a bunch of self-righteous, pompous, and ignorant statements without attempting to make an intelligent reason for doing so.

Your opinions are almost anything but rational and logical, and I couldn’t give a shit how I "come across". The fact that you think you're logical or rational means nothing to the rest of us. These forums are littered with your well-meaning but ill-considered opinions, and if you think they were also "very rational and logical" then ive got news for you, and its all bad.

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Originally posted by Theresa I no longer wish to continue going back and forth with you until you decide to step off that pedestal of yours and actually have a discussion. dis·cus·sion Audio Help /dɪˈskʌʃən/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[di-skuhsh-uhn] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation –noun an act or instance of discussing; consideration or examination by argument, comment, etc., esp. to explore solutions; informal debate. In case you didn't know, simply telling me that I am wrong, and that you are right is not a discussion. Thanks

The point is, is that you miss the point. Having an opinion against adoption is all well and good, but what is needed is a thorough analysis of how you feel the inherent problems in such a position can be attended to (some of which I have mentioned here). Ideas and opinion don't exist in a vaccuum you know, either you provide realistic alternatives to adoption and a justification for telling others what to do (which seems to be a real favourite of yours) or you STFU with your half-baked bollocks.

You havent even begun to scratch the surface of this topic nor address the obvious ramifications which is why myself and others treat you with such derision. its not my job to be nice to people that regularly display their lack of critical thinking.

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So then really, abstinence is what you should be preaching...and not abortion.

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Originally posted by Theresa Care to explain why?

Aborting a fetus is still abandonment, imo.

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Originally posted by jennypie So then really, abstinence is what you should be preaching...and not abortion.

Not at all.

We are sexual creatures. We are one of the very few on this planet that enjoy sex for pleasure. I don't think people should abstain... there is nothing wrong with something that is natural.

Maybe back in the day when there weren't known ways to prevent pregnancy I would have thought that those who could not raise children should abstain. However, we are in a time in which there are plenty of ways to prevent unwanted pregnancy.

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Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN

All of that was just you telling me I am wrong and not explaining why you are right. It is a lot easier to simply say someone else isn't right without proving why or claiming what is.

You blab on about how I am illogical etc. etc., but haven't provided a reason that it is true other than that you think it is.

We just keep going in circles.

Last edited by RandomGirl on May-09-2008 at 04:32