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Originally posted by Krypton I am the correct authority actually. The power of my government is in me and the electorate. Not with the president, not with the Congress, but with me and the American people. And it is clear the American people are done with Iraq. Therefore, the government has an obligation to fulfill the will of the people, and withdraw from that wretched country.

not really. If every decision were up to you or the american people we would frequently have referendums on every major decision. Instead, we elect people we feel represent us well. to the extent they don't represent us well, we have the power to elect someone who will in the next election cycle. that is the extent of your decision making capabilities. don't get it twisted thinking your will is any more important than electing your next representative. it's utterly ridiculous when people think that elected representatives are bound by the will of the people in the decision making process. your power over government is only your vote, and that is your only guaranteed say in our government.

in any event, the will of the people is not the best barometer for a correct decision. the people usually aren't privileged to all relevant information, and most certainly are unaware of current events and more importantly the consequences of major decisions with respect to current events. this shouldn't be taken that i don't think democracies work because i certainly do. however, the point is that the average person is unprepared to make important decisions and we shouldn't expect them to make the correct decision in this regard; that is the entire reason we have career politicians. for better or worse, these are the people we trust to make the right choices on our behalf because we expect them to spend their entire work-day studying issues we can't because we too have jobs. Nevertheless, they don't have an obligation to do what you want. if they choose a different path your only recourse is to change your vote.

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Thursday 30 October: 6 dead Baghdad: roadside bomb kills 1, Hurriya; 1 body found. Ninewa Mosul: gunmen kill 2; car bomb kills 2. Wednesday 29 October: 18 dead Baghdad: bombs kill 7. Diyala Balad Ruz: gunmen storm house, kill 3 family members of Sahwa member. Baquba: roadside bomb kills 4-year-old girl. Abu Saida: roadside bomb kills Sahwa member. Ninewa Mosul: bombs kill 2. Anbar Ramadi: roadside bomb kills 1. Babil Hilla: gunmen kill 3 policemen. Tuesday 28 October: 42 dead Baghdad: bombs kill 6; 5 reported killed by US snipers in Sadr City in the past 10 days; 1 body found. Ninewa Mosul: gunmen kill 4 police recruits; 3 others killed in separate incidents. Tal Afar: 20 bodies found in basement of abandoned house. Anbar Habbaniya: suicide bomber kills 2 policemen. Babil Hilla: 1 body found. Monday 27 October: 11 dead Baghdad: bombs kill 6; 1 body found. Ninewa Mosul: gunmen kill policeman; suicide bomber kills policeman; 1 body found. Salahuddin Dour: roadside bomb kills minibus passenger. Sunday 26 October: 2 dead Baghdad: 1 body found. Ninewa Mosul: gunmen kill policeman. Saturday 25 October: 12 dead Baghdad: bombs kill 3; 2 bodies found. Ninewa Mosul: gunmen kill 2 policemen; gunmen kill man in drive-by shooting. Anbar Falluja: gunmen kill 2. Tameem Kirkuk: 2 bodies found. Friday 24 October: 9 dead Baghdad: 2 bodies found. Wassit Kut: 4 children killed by landmine; policeman's body found. Anbar Amiriya Falluja: roadside bomb kills 1. Falluja: US forces kill man in his bed during early-morning raid.

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Originally posted by jerZ07002 not really. If every decision were up to you or the american people we would frequently have referendums on every major decision. Instead, we elect people we feel represent us well. to the extent they don't represent us well, we have the power to elect someone who will in the next election cycle. that is the extent of your decision making capabilities. don't get it twisted thinking your will is any more important than electing your next representative. it's utterly ridiculous when people think that elected representatives are bound by the will of the people in the decision making process. your power over government is only your vote, and that is your only guaranteed say in our government.

Not every major decision. Referendums would do a lot to curtail Congressional deadlock. If the parties can't decide, let the people...

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in any event, the will of the people is not the best barometer for a correct decision. the people usually aren't privileged to all relevant information, and most certainly are unaware of current events and more importantly the consequences of major decisions with respect to current events. this shouldn't be taken that i don't think democracies work because i certainly do. however, the point is that the average person is unprepared to make important decisions and we shouldn't expect them to make the correct decision in this regard; that is the entire reason we have career politicians. for better or worse, these are the people we trust to make the right choices on our behalf because we expect them to spend their entire work-day studying issues we can't because we too have jobs. Nevertheless, they don't have an obligation to do what you want. if they choose a different path your only recourse is to change your vote.

Ahh, reminds me of the Crito; Socrates believes public opinion is not important to the decision because the many's ignorance does not allow them to have true choice, and therefore their opinions are of no value.

While somewhat true, remember that only those who care actually vote. The majority of the ignorant masses don't vote, and so they don't have a say. The same would be true for referendums. I rather believe bottom up governance should hold as much sway as top down governance. The previous 7 years has proven what unfettered top down governance could do to a country.

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Originally posted by Krypton Not every major decision. Referendums would do a lot to curtail Congressional deadlock. If the parties can't decide, let the people... Ahh, reminds me of the Crito; Socrates believes public opinion is not important to the decision because the many's ignorance does not allow them to have true choice, and therefore their opinions are of no value. While somewhat true, remember that only those who care actually vote. The majority of the ignorant masses don't vote, and so they don't have a say. The same would be true for referendums. I rather believe bottom up governance should hold as much sway as top down governance. The previous 7 years has proven what unfettered top down governance could do to a country.

on the way home from the office tonight i saw a great sticker i think you would appreciate. the sticker had the republican elephant at the top and below that it said, "trickle down democracy," with the elephanat pissing on the word democracy. I tried searching for that image on google but i couldn't find it.

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Originally posted by jerZ07002 on the way home from the office tonight i saw a great sticker i think you would appreciate. the sticker had the republican elephant at the top and below that it said, "trickle down democracy," with the elephanat pissing on the word democracy. I tried searching for that image on google but i couldn't find it.

Heh, I like this one...

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Originally posted by Krypton Heh, I like this one...

that's good too, but the one i saw actually made me laugh.

Time for another episode of 'This Week in Iraq'...

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Monday 10 November: 39 dead Baghdad: 27 civilians (inc. 5 children) die in bombings; 1 body found. Diyala Baquba: young girl blows herself up at Sahwa checkpoint, kills 6 others; gunmen kill 2. Babel Hilla: gunmen kill 1. Dhi Qar Nassiriya: US vehicle kills child. Sunday 9 November: 16 dead Anbar Amiriyat al-Falluja: suicide bomber kills 3 (1 child) at hospital. Diyala Khalis: bomb in market kills 5; gunmen kill 1. Baquba: bomb in rubbish bin kills sanitation worker. Ninewa Mosul: 3 killed in separate attacks. Wassit Kut: 1 body found. Babil Iskandariya: 2 bodies found. Saturday 8 November: 16 dead Baghdad: 3 die in violent attacks; 1 body found. Anbar Al-Jazeera: suicide car bomber kills 8. Ninewa Mosul: 1 policeman dies in drive-by shooting. Dahuk US helicopter kills 2 men in a car. Babil Hilla: 1 body found. Friday 7 November: 7 dead Baghdad: bombs kill 4. Diyala Al=Atheim: roadside bomb kills 2 Sahwa members. Wassit Kut: gunmen kill 1. Thursday 6 November: 14 dead Baghdad: 8 die in bombings. Ninewa Mosul: 1 body found. Tameem Sayada: 1 body found. Hawija: US forces shoot dead man resisting arrest. Anbar Falluja: 3 bodies found. Wednesday 5 November: 15 dead Baghdad: suicide bomber kills 6. Ninewa Mosul: 3 die in bombing and shootings; 1 body found. Missan Amara: roadside bomb kills policeman. Tameem Riyadh: 2 bodies found. Anbar Karmah: roadside bomb kills 2. Tuesday 4 November: 30 dead Baghdad: 21 killed in bombings and shootings, including a mother and her 2 young children. Salahuddin Tikrit: US forces run down 2 Iraqi men putting up a banner in street. Ninewa Mosul: 5 killed in bombings and shootings; 2 bodies found.

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Five killed, 30 wounded in Baghdad bomb strike BAGHDAD (Reuters) - A car bomb exploded in central Baghdad on Monday and a suicide bomber blew himself up in the crowd as people rushed to help the wounded, killing at least five people and wounding 30 in the double strike, police said. The double bombing took place in the Kasra neighbourhood on the east bank of the Tigris River. Police said the death toll could rise. Violence in Iraq has decreased dramatically over the past year and militants no longer control whole swathes of its towns and villages. But they remain able to carry out daily bomb attacks on civilian and military targets. http://in.reuters.com/article/world...-36418520081110

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Dude how fucked up is this. Now that Obama is about to take office, the Chicago tribune blog noted today that "Iraq Bombings Show Progress" because it notes that it's the worst day of violence since June, showing how the surge has been effective. SPINTASTIC!

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Today's bombings in Iraq which left dozens dead is a stark and horrible reminder that, while violence has dropped significantly there as a result of the U.S. military's surge, that country is still very dangerous. It's a measure of progress that today's blasts, which killed at least 31 people in Baghdad and more elsewhere, according to the Associated Press, represented the worst day of violence since June."

http://www.swamppolitics.com/news/p...gs_an_omen.html

I don't know how this surge has worked. There is a bombing practically every day of the week.

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Originally posted by Krypton I don't know how this surge has worked. There is a bombing practically every day of the week.

that's looking at the trees and not the forest though. the progress can't be denied... I know this because the media has been quiet about Iraq for a while now. I mean, you know there are murders in Chicago every day but that doesn't mean the Chicago PD or the mayor have failed in making the city worth living in/visiting.

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Originally posted by The17sss that's looking at the trees and not the forest though. the progress can't be denied... I know this because the media has been quiet about Iraq for a while now. I mean, you know there are murders in Chicago every day but that doesn't mean the Chicago PD or the mayor have failed in making the city worth living in/visiting.

There aren't bombs going off everyday in Chicago. Over 60 people died this week of violence, just violence, not natural causes, violence, in Baghdad alone. I don't see that as progress. The political structure of the country is still very much in question, and I don't believe for one second Iraq could become a liberal democracy, or bastion of freedom, whatever the propaganda machine likes to say. Iraq's constitution itself states that Islam is the supreme law of the land. Please, point to me, one country, which is truly free, in which Islam is the law of the land. Because I haven't found one...

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