quote:

Originally posted by Halcyon+On+On Yet you can be critical of other self-fulfilling prophecies?

Let's put it like this. Faith is more about building a solid, personal relationship with a higher being [if you believe in one] than it is about what the Catholics are doing behind closed doors and saying at Sunday mass, who the Muslims are fighting, or who the Jews think is the Messiah.

That's all I'm saying.

Faith receives whatever content it has from religious traditions and the institutions that have fostered them. You can choose to practice a faith outside any institution, but your practices will probably still descend in some way from the traditions of "organized religion" whether you want to admit it or not, unless you're simply making things up as you go.

quote:

Originally posted by MrJiveBoJingles Faith... simply making things up as you go.

I agree!

___________________
There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio,
Than are dreamt of in your philosophy.

I know plenty of atheists who have a secular-humanist Faith in love, freindship, peace, comraderie, etc.

aren't we all making things up as we go along, regardless of faith?

quote:

Originally posted by Renzo Let's put it like this. Faith is more about building a solid, personal relationship with a higher being [if you believe in one] than it is about what the Catholics are doing behind closed doors and saying at Sunday mass, who the Muslims are fighting, or who the Jews think is the Messiah. That's all I'm saying.

Well of course they're different things. My point was never that they are the same thing and that even my blanket criticisms applied to each equally, because they simply don't.

But to imply that I could never "know" faith because I cannot value it in the same way that a believer can simply does not lend any credibility to the phenomenon. It doesn't even make me feel all warm and tingly inside.

___________________
There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio,
Than are dreamt of in your philosophy.

quote:

Originally posted by DJ Damerchi aren't we all making things up as we go along, regardless of faith?

I don't think there's anything wrong with that. I'm just puzzled by the idea that any significant number of people have a "faith" or "spirituality" whose content floats free of any organized religious tradition. I think that idea is obviously false. People who have spiritual practices might reject many aspects of what they call "organized religion," and they might not go to any churches or temples, but they will still be indebted to the religions they reject for most of their ideas about spiritual beings, practices, and concepts.

quote:

Originally posted by DJ Damerchi I know plenty of atheists who have a secular-humanist Faith in love, freindship, peace, comraderie, etc.

See, it totally makes sense to me why people would conjure up this image of an atheist as an obviously left-leaning, anti-soldier, puppy-smashing prickface, because it's totally true, and that's what's awesome about it.

___________________
There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio,
Than are dreamt of in your philosophy.

quote:

Originally posted by Renzo Faith is more about building a solid, personal relationship with a higher being

or the personal experience of a higher level of being.

I would say that any personal experience is a relationship.

//Unless of course, you were to like, come across God taking a shit in the woods, and like, he didn't see you, but you saw him. I mean, that's really not a relationship or anything. I mean, maybe if your name is boris, but not typically.

___________________
There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio,
Than are dreamt of in your philosophy.

quote:

Originally posted by MrJiveBoJingles I don't think there's anything wrong with that. I'm just puzzled by the idea that any significant number of people have a "faith" or "spirituality" whose content floats free of any organized religious tradition. I think that idea is obviously false. People who have spiritual practices might reject many aspects of what they call "organized religion," and they might not go to any churches or temples, but they will still be indebted to the religions they reject for most of their ideas about spiritual beings, practices, and concepts.

I see what you mean, and this really rings true if you come from a a place where the religion is heavily embedded in the culture.Even if you choose to be agnostic, you can't escape all the traditions and customs. It may be something as small as taking a free-kick and unconciously letting out a prayer to score. Some cultures are so dependant on religion, that if taken away, would leave the people with no means to cope with anything.

Its hard to ever know if these ideas are pragmatic ones, and if we were to have been raised in isolation, would these ideas of faith still come to us? Obviously specific rituals like meditation are learned, but I still beleive there is an innate part of us that seeks faith in something beyond the 5 senses. Sprituality came before organized religion. Nowadays, however, its exceedingly difficuly to practice faith that is completely free from the influence of the organized influence, even if its on a subconcious level.

quote:

Originally posted by Halcyon+On+On I would say that any personal experience is a relationship. //Unless of course, you were to like, come across God taking a shit in the woods, and like, he didn't see you, but you saw him. I mean, that's really not a relationship or anything. I mean, maybe if your name is boris, but not typically.

yeah my point was more to question the usage of 'being' as a separate entity and to suggest that another usage of 'being', as a state of existence might be closer to the experience of god and faith.