quote:

Originally posted by Clovis ...and because defining a "sample" can be very difficult. Musically, the area is very gray. The decision on where to draw the line is up for debate. I think thats a good thing.

Defining a sample is very easy. It's the use of an existing sound recording with a verifiable copyright in a piece of music. Things like plagiarism are much harder to argue, but what defines a sample is very cut and dried. And in a business sense, sampling without royalties is illegal.

Basically, these days you can release a free MP3 of a remix at absolutely no charge. It's even easier than pressing a white label. If Wolf + Lamb really just made these edits for personal use and really just release them because people want them, they can effortlessly do it for free. This "under the radar" argument is utter bullshit.

They're charging for these tracks because they want to make money without paying Stevie Wonder what he's owed. Very simple.

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Mixes:
> Maximum Elevation [Progressive House]
> DI.FM 26th Anniversary Guest Mix [Progressive House]
> Live @ Dance:Love:Hub London, 11.10.2025
> Higher Peaks [Progressive House]
> Dance:Love:Hub Afterparty (The Return) 23.11.24

Like these sets? Come see me play live at Kibosh in Manchester: https://www.instagram.com/kibosh.mcr/

I still don't get why people seem to think they make any kind of money off of these or any of their other releases.

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It's generally assumed that when someone sells a product for a given monetary value, they are in fact making some kind of money from that transaction. Crazy, I know.

___________________
Mixes:
> Maximum Elevation [Progressive House]
> DI.FM 26th Anniversary Guest Mix [Progressive House]
> Live @ Dance:Love:Hub London, 11.10.2025
> Higher Peaks [Progressive House]
> Dance:Love:Hub Afterparty (The Return) 23.11.24

Like these sets? Come see me play live at Kibosh in Manchester: https://www.instagram.com/kibosh.mcr/

By that I mean any substantial amount of money. Too say their sole purpose in releasing these is to make money is ridiculous.

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Define substantial in non-arbitrary terms and then provide evidence beyond conjecture and assumption to show W+L aren't making that amount of money.

___________________
Mixes:
> Maximum Elevation [Progressive House]
> DI.FM 26th Anniversary Guest Mix [Progressive House]
> Live @ Dance:Love:Hub London, 11.10.2025
> Higher Peaks [Progressive House]
> Dance:Love:Hub Afterparty (The Return) 23.11.24

Like these sets? Come see me play live at Kibosh in Manchester: https://www.instagram.com/kibosh.mcr/

Its pretty much common knowledge that producers don't make much for selling music nowdays, especially considering niche within a niche genres like this.

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Firstly, most "common knowledge" is wrong. Secondly, general rules often don't apply to specific examples. Thirdly, that's conjecture and assumption.

Although are we really classing W+L as "niche within a niche"? They have a thread every day on TA, they have a podcast entry on a highly popular review site and their upcoming gig is flyered all over my city.

___________________
Mixes:
> Maximum Elevation [Progressive House]
> DI.FM 26th Anniversary Guest Mix [Progressive House]
> Live @ Dance:Love:Hub London, 11.10.2025
> Higher Peaks [Progressive House]
> Dance:Love:Hub Afterparty (The Return) 23.11.24

Like these sets? Come see me play live at Kibosh in Manchester: https://www.instagram.com/kibosh.mcr/

quote:

Originally posted by SYSTEM-J This "under the radar" argument is utter bullshit.

It's not an argument.

quote:

They're charging for these tracks because they want to make money without paying Stevie Wonder what he's owed. Very simple.

So you think that ALL samples should be cleared at all costs or else the music should just be free?

We could go all over the place with that one.

I understand the intention here and I understand the law, what I'm trying to point out is that in reality, things happen differently, and they have been for a while. It would be great if everything could be cleared fairly and easily but that just isn't the case, and I personally would rather have some music that borrows illegally make it out than not. I wouldn't release edits of stevie wonder or michael jackson like that myself, but there is more to the situation than just the law.

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quote:

Originally posted by ******** Seplling don't demonstrate intelligence and educatoin - knowing does.

quote:

Originally posted by SYSTEM-J Firstly, most "common knowledge" is wrong. Secondly, general rules often don't apply to specific examples. Thirdly, that's conjecture and assumption.

Yours is also "conjecture and assumption"

quote:

Originally posted by SYSTEM-J Although are we really classing W+L as "niche within a niche"? They have a thread every day on TA, they have a podcast entry on a highly popular review site and their upcoming gig is flyered all over my city.

That's just good promoting, really. And TA is a weird place. I frequent other forums, mostly as a lurker and believe me when I say that W+L is not big there.

Which "highly popular review site"?

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quote:

Originally posted by Clovis So you think that ALL samples should be cleared at all costs or else the music should just be free? We could go all over the place with that one.

If you want to make money out of a sample, then yes. Otherwise these artists couldn't complain about piracy, because they used something without paying the original creator themselves. It's the same principle, just a different application.

I appreciate that lots of great music uses samples, but that music could still exist, it just wouldn't make the artist any money.

@woscar: There's no conjecture in saying they want to make money out of a track by releasing it when they could give it away for free, and there's no conjecture in saying they don't want to pay Stevie Wonder if they've kept quiet about it. Unless you can think of a really good reason why they want to tell him but can't.

___________________
Mixes:
> Maximum Elevation [Progressive House]
> DI.FM 26th Anniversary Guest Mix [Progressive House]
> Live @ Dance:Love:Hub London, 11.10.2025
> Higher Peaks [Progressive House]
> Dance:Love:Hub Afterparty (The Return) 23.11.24

Like these sets? Come see me play live at Kibosh in Manchester: https://www.instagram.com/kibosh.mcr/

quote:

Originally posted by SYSTEM-J Firstly, most "common knowledge" is wrong. Secondly, general rules often don't apply to specific examples. Thirdly, that's conjecture and assumption.

I'm just going by what people who actually have experience releasing music have said. I think there was even a thread about it in Production Studio recently. As Clovis said, beatport sales alone are not putting food on the table. (and I think he actually knows some of the artists in question here, which would definitely apply to your "specific example.")

quote:

Although are we really classing W+L as "niche within a niche"? They have a thread every day on TA, they have a podcast entry on a highly popular review site and their upcoming gig is flyered all over my city.

Yes, compared to most mainstream music, they are. Theres no denying they are big in the "underground" of EDM, but they represent a very small fraction of dance music which in itself is a niche.

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quote:

Originally posted by SYSTEM-J @woscar: There's no conjecture in saying they want to make money out of a track by releasing it when they could give it away for free, and there's no conjecture in saying they don't want to pay Stevie Wonder if they've kept quiet about it. Unless you can think of a really good reason why they want to tell him but can't.

I wasn't talking about that. I was talking about how you played the "you're only assuming that" card on Seppuku for his comment on how much EDM artists make from their tracks without backing it up with facts. Which was "conjecture and assumption" in itself.

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