quote:

Originally posted by Michael Russo The ignorance in this thread is astounding... most people here are very confused. I suggest you study religions first before you make such ridiculous comments...

i would have to agree on this point. and let me just state for the record that i'm on the opposed side of the discussion. personally, i can never find someone who believes in something so blindly as religion to be intelligent. you may be well read like me, but that just furthers your stupidity if you've been exposed to so much and still remain this ignorant. i have a vast knowledge in many of the world religions because i have a passion for learning and never have i read anything to convince that the words in any holy text are anything more then epic tales of whatever. the problem with this argument is that religious people have no ability to think of other possibilities outside of what they have been raised to believe. the only way that i could respect someone with such strong beliefs is if they came to these ideas on their own instead of just assuming the best case scenario. and the debate goes on...

Most people here have opinions based on the wrong "knowledge"...

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Originally posted by Floorfiller i would have to agree on this point. and let me just state for the record that i'm on the opposed side of the discussion. personally, i can never find someone who believes in something so blindly as religion to be intelligent. you may be well read like me, but that just furthers your stupidity if you've been exposed to so much and still remain this ignorant. i have a vast knowledge in many of the world religions because i have a passion for learning and never have i read anything to convince that the words in any holy text are anything more then epic tales of whatever. the problem with this argument is that religious people have no ability to think of other possibilities outside of what they have been raised to believe. the only way that i could respect someone with such strong beliefs is if they came to these ideas on their own instead of just assuming the best case scenario. and the debate goes on...

Finally a comment worth commenting on (i'll address it later).


And then we have absolute idiots like kirbtastic making comments like "i can only talk from a catholic point of view because thats how i was brought up. catholics believe that the only way to get to heaven is to belive in jesus...that means every jew, muslim, buddist, hindi are going to hell...seems a bit unfair....all the people who died before jesus was born are also in hell...also unfair to burn for eternity because of when u were born. oh yea...gays...burning in hell. if u were never baptised...ur burning in hell"

1) Don't even attempt to talk from the Catholic point of view because you have no idea what it is.

2) You don't have to believe in Jesus to go to Heaven.

3) Just because you're a Jew, Muslim, Buddhist, etc. doesn't mean you're going to Hell.

4) All the people born before Jesus did not go to Hell.

5) You don't have to be baptized to go to Heaven, just as you can burn in Hell even if you were baptized.

Umm.. that's the real Catholic position on this whole issue. And don't even try arguing because I'm not wrong.

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lets just say there is life on other planets...do all those beings burn in hell too...they probaly dont know about jesus. heaven cant be just an earth thing because if u believe the bible God is the creator of all things. a billion years ago the human race wasnt even a thought...a billion years from now we wont even be a memory, and our beliefs and all our accomplishments will die with us. a new life form will evolve somewhere else and start a new religion and they will think that they are the chosen ones...or maybe all those beings will burn in hell too.

Comments like these make me wonder... is this an argument against religion? I'm not quite sure, but I do know for sure its an argument for you're immense stupidity.

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Originally posted by Floorfiller you may be well read like me, but that just furthers your stupidity if you've been exposed to so much and still remain this ignorant.

*cough* Are you really well read? "If you've been exposed to this much and still remain this ignorant?"... that's a ridiculous comment. When I used the word ignorant I was referring to the people who studied nothing and/ or thought they were an authority on something they knew nothing about. But can the definition also be extended to include people who may not be ignorant in the traditional sense (ie they are well read), but have missed the entire point?

You see, it's ok to study a lot and learn a lot and then form opinions, but not to criticize other people for their beliefs.

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Originally posted by Floorfiller personally, i can never find someone who believes in something so blindly as religion to be intelligent.

Oh God... historically the smartest people have been religious. Einstein? Does that name mean anything to you?

And what about the RC Church's Pope? He's one of the smartest men alive.

Or Aquinas? Thomas More? Surely these people are not all fools.

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Originally posted by Floorfiller the problem with this argument is that religious people have no ability to think of other possibilities outside of what they have been raised to believe.

Quite a stereotype... accurate in many cases, and a lot are extreme, but nonetheless not true in all cases. And how can you explain something like the story of St. Augustine? If you don't start "thinking outside the box," the only argument you can possibly have is that Augustine never existed, which we all know is an impossibility.

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Originally posted by Michael Russo And then we have absolute idiots like kirbtastic making comments like "i can only talk from a catholic point of view because thats how i was brought up. catholics believe that the only way to get to heaven is to belive in jesus...that means every jew, muslim, buddist, hindi are going to hell...seems a bit unfair....all the people who died before jesus was born are also in hell...also unfair to burn for eternity because of when u were born. oh yea...gays...burning in hell. if u were never baptised...ur burning in hell" 1) Don't even attempt to talk from the Catholic point of view because you have no idea what it is. 2) You don't have to believe in Jesus to go to Heaven. 3) Just because you're a Jew, Muslim, Buddhist, etc. doesn't mean you're going to Hell. 4) All the people born before Jesus did not go to Hell. 5) You don't have to be baptized to go to Heaven, just as you can burn in Hell even if you were baptized. Umm.. that's the real Catholic position on this whole issue. And don't even try arguing because I'm not wrong. Comments like these make me wonder... is this an argument against religion? I'm not quite sure, but I do know for sure its an argument for you're immense stupidity.

well i was an alter boy from the age of 10..and i went to catholic school until the age of 16..that was what i was taught..and im not against religion at all..religion helps instill a good set of values, it gives something for people to believe in and gives hope. i just choose not to believe in it anymore.

please do not refer to me as an idiot..im entitled to my opinion and you should respect that just as i respect your opinion.

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Originally posted by Michael Russo Most people here have opinions based on the wrong "knowledge"... Finally a comment worth commenting on (i'll address it later). And then we have absolute idiots like kirbtastic making comments like "i can only talk from a catholic point of view because thats how i was brought up. catholics believe that the only way to get to heaven is to belive in jesus...that means every jew, muslim, buddist, hindi are going to hell...seems a bit unfair....all the people who died before jesus was born are also in hell...also unfair to burn for eternity because of when u were born. oh yea...gays...burning in hell. if u were never baptised...ur burning in hell" 1) Don't even attempt to talk from the Catholic point of view because you have no idea what it is. 2) You don't have to believe in Jesus to go to Heaven. 3) Just because you're a Jew, Muslim, Buddhist, etc. doesn't mean you're going to Hell. 4) All the people born before Jesus did not go to Hell. 5) You don't have to be baptized to go to Heaven, just as you can burn in Hell even if you were baptized. Umm.. that's the real Catholic position on this whole issue. And don't even try arguing because I'm not wrong. Comments like these make me wonder... is this an argument against religion? I'm not quite sure, but I do know for sure its an argument for you're immense stupidity. *cough* Are you really well read? "If you've been exposed to this much and still remain this ignorant?"... that's a ridiculous comment. When I used the word ignorant I was referring to the people who studied nothing and/ or thought they were an authority on something they knew nothing about. But can the definition also be extended to include people who may not be ignorant in the traditional sense (ie they are well read), but have missed the entire point? You see, it's ok to study a lot and learn a lot and then form opinions, but not to criticize other people for their beliefs. Oh God... historically the smartest people have been religious. Einstein? Does that name mean anything to you? And what about the RC Church's Pope? He's one of the smartest men alive. Or Aquinas? Thomas More? Surely these people are not all fools. Quite a stereotype... accurate in many cases, and a lot are extreme, but nonetheless not true in all cases. And how can you explain something like the story of St. Augustine? If you don't start "thinking outside the box," the only argument you can possibly have is that Augustine never existed, which we all know is an impossibility.

i knew that this comment on my part would raise controversy...its a strong, may seem stupid, statement. allow me to reply in the same fashion you did?

i know what you meant in your statement about people talking about things they don't know about...i guess i was simply demonstrating a different dynamic that i find peoples ignorance in...not their lack of knowledge, but resisting the ability to construct their own reasons for things. i cannot tolerate people that simply go along with something because they are raised to do so. i believe that people should come to their own conclusions through a rational process of thought. now some might say "well you follow science" or whatever the medium is, but i would have to say that these arguments are well supported and rational. questions of religion are different... i just don't see how people can listen to it because it is all assumptions passed on through the generations. What separates one man's beliefs from another...if your christian you believe in god because "god wanted it that way" thats the final answer.

addressing the people you mentioned i.e. einstein etc... these are very smart people, but academics is something different. i could be a complete math genius but be a complete idiot at other things. no doubt these people you mentioned have special talents, but without the ability to see through religious propoganda i don't know where they stand in my list of intelligent rational people. i mean hitler was smart too, but he still killed lots of people didn't he? i also must believe that their are very few people out there that truly believe in their religion...at least in america anyway i suppose a great deal of muslims are very devote, but in the developed western world religion has become something that people state as their religion, but don't actually practice it...people mentioned earlier not going to church but that its ok because god ok's it? thats bullshit. people's abilities to arbitarially pick and choose what they "believe" simply to make their lives more convenient and have this false security of being "heavenly" just shows how absurd religion has become.

as far as my response being stereotypical...i'll respond by pointing out the response that we have gotten here on this thread. as far as i'm concerned...there have only been a few good posts in this thread mostly by those trying to provide information to sway people's opinions of religion. well i've tried that before and it is pointless so i've tried to refrain from presenting a bunch of knowledge that won't matter in the end because people want to believe what they want to. personally i couldn't care less what the rest of you think on the subject, i can see the mistakes that you make in your arguments and i have justified my argument to myself so thats all i need. (and i know that someone is going to say "it sounds like you are the one that isn't open to other opinions and let me just say...if you provide the right reasons hey...i'll run down to the local church and get down on my knees, but thats not going to happen...at least not on this board). alright its late...i'm going to bed.

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Originally posted by kirbtastic well i was an alter boy from the age of 10..and i went to catholic school until the age of 16..that was what i was taught..and im not against religion at all..religion helps instill a good set of values, it gives something for people to believe in and gives hope. i just choose not to believe in it anymore. please do not refer to me as an idiot..im entitled to my opinion and you should respect that just as i respect your opinion.

you just mentioned the points of religion..."religion helps instill a good set of values, it gives something for people to believe in and gives hope". coming from an alter boy...there you go. if anyone knows it would be him right? well he just said in so many words that religion is a means to get people to behave and give them hope...hope is the key word here. people need hope to live their stupid little lives...i just don't see why people need something as arbitrary as religion to give them a reason to live...they are so many other things worth living for.

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Originally posted by Floorfiller i cannot tolerate people that simply go along with something because they are raised to do so.

I can totally see where you're coming from. My brother has made the point you're making a lot of times. He strongly believes that religous belief and intelligence are mutually exclusive properties. He would gladly assert that Einstein had the intellectual capacity of a toad.

But I don't agree entirely. Because whether or not you realize it, I can guarentee there are things about you that were formed during your early childhood that you've never really questioned. I, too, try to question everything, but I'm sure there are things about me that are a direct byproduct of my upbringing. The fact is, a small child is defenseless against indoctrination by the people who care for him. For some people, these things they learn at this age become so central to their existence, that trying to get them to seriously consider the possibility that they are false is like... well much like trying to tell someone they've been living in a dream world their entire life (i.e. The Matrix).

I strongly believe there is no greater violation a parent can commit against their child than religious/moral indoctrination. It is the spiritual version of rape, but frequently the emotional and intellectual scars it leaves are even more profound. Any parent who has any respect for their offspring would want their children to come to their own conclusions - not to simply accept the same ones they came to (or were pushed into coming to...)

But in this violation, I don't think it's right to blame the victim, just because they were too weak to defend themselves at the time it happened, and because they've been sapped off the strength to break away from the bonds of their past.

Regards,

Arbiter

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Originally posted by Arbiter I can totally see where you're coming from. My brother has made the point you're making a lot of times. He strongly believes that religous belief and intelligence are mutually exclusive properties. He would gladly assert that Einstein had the intellectual capacity of a toad. But I don't agree entirely. Because whether or not you realize it, I can guarentee there are things about you that were formed during your early childhood that you've never really questioned. I, too, try to question everything, but I'm sure there are things about me that are a direct byproduct of my upbringing. The fact is, a small child is defenseless against indoctrination by the people who care for him. For some people, these things they learn at this age become so central to their existence, that trying to get them to seriously consider the possibility that they are false is like... well much like trying to tell someone they've been living in a dream world their entire life (i.e. The Matrix). I strongly believe there is no greater violation a parent can commit against their child than religious/moral indoctrination. It is the spiritual version of rape, but frequently the emotional and intellectual scars it leaves are even more profound. Any parent who has any respect for their offspring would want their children to come to their own conclusions - not to simply accept the same ones they came to (or were pushed into coming to...) But in this violation, I don't think it's right to blame the victim, just because they were too weak to defend themselves at the time it happened, and because they've been sapped off the strength to break away from the bonds of their past. Regards, Arbiter

i appreciate your comments arbiter and agree with you completely. i understand that environment does have a great part in our views of ourselves and obviously has a direct effect on our beliefs (i forget which the men behind this view, but then again it is almost 3am...if nothing else i remember talking about this very subject in length in class at some point in time. i would like to think that those of us that are reasonable people when presented with views opposed to our own will give thought to both situations and discern what we consider to be correct. JS Mill's (if you are familiar with him i don't know they're so many) would say that we should hear false opinions to strengthen our grasp on the truth...and of course we can never be certain that we are correct. i can only hope that i would do the same when presented with something that is in conflict to my positions. i cannot blame the victim for being forced into a certain mindset especially when a lack of knowledge exists, but i will challenge their stances once presented with other answers to those other then their own. i think, as i'm sure you do, that everyone should be their own philosopher and come to realizations from experience and knowledge attained in that experience.

as wilder once said

There's something way down deep that's eternal about every human being

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Originally posted by Floorfiller ...if your christian you believe in god because "god wanted it that way" thats the final answer.

i'm sorry, but just because you have a "vast knowledge" of world religions, as you put it, you shouldn't try to comment on them unless you have actually practiced that religion. if i understand what you are saying by this, i do have reasons for believing in god, not just blindly believing because thats what i am told. i was brought up a christian and yes i believed in jesus because thats what i was told all my life. but over the past few years i have done some studying and serious thinking on this whole issue, and i have come to my own conclusions, and i still believe wholly in god. you probably wouldn't consider my reasons valid because they come from the bible and my own personal experiences at camps and listening to speakers, but if you have done all i have done i know for a fact you would, if not fully believe in god, at least be wondering if there really is a god, instead of just automatically disregarding the facts because you have seen too many hypocritical christians and can't see how there is a god.

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Originally posted by Floorfiller ...people mentioned earlier not going to church but that its ok because god ok's it?

while christians should go to church because it helps you spritually, you don't necessarily have to go to church to be a christian. as long as you believe in jesus, that is enough. so no, these people aren't "picking and choosing" out of beliefs, they just might not be as strong as christians that do go to church.

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Originally posted by Michael Russo 2) You don't have to believe in Jesus to go to Heaven.

please elaborate. i really don't know much at all about the catholic faith, but i would really like to understand how you could be a christian without believing in heaven.

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Originally posted by sherman i'm sorry, but just because you have a "vast knowledge" of world religions, as you put it, you shouldn't try to comment on them unless you have actually practiced that religion. if i understand what you are saying by this, i do have reasons for believing in god, not just blindly believing because thats what i am told. i was brought up a christian and yes i believed in jesus because thats what i was told all my life. but over the past few years i have done some studying and serious thinking on this whole issue, and i have come to my own conclusions, and i still believe wholly in god. you probably wouldn't consider my reasons valid because they come from the bible and my own personal experiences at camps and listening to speakers, but if you have done all i have done i know for a fact you would, if not fully believe in god, at least be wondering if there really is a god, instead of just automatically disregarding the facts because you have seen too many hypocritical christians and can't see how there is a god. while christians should go to church because it helps you spritually, you don't necessarily have to go to church to be a christian. as long as you believe in jesus, that is enough. so no, these people aren't "picking and choosing" out of beliefs, they just might not be as strong as christians that do go to church.

did i say i haven't at one time or another been christian? i in fact come from a christian family so i find it funny that you assume i'm saying all of this from an outside perspective. i've been to sunday school i know the bible and if you have your reasons thats fine with me...i just don't see what can convince you that the bible is some great text with all the answers. i'm curious as to what proof from the bible you have justified your beliefs on? please enlighten all of us non-believers. as far as the church thing...whatever...i can't deny that the terms of religion have become more lax over time.

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Originally posted by sherman please elaborate. i really don't know much at all about the catholic faith, but i would really like to understand how you could be a christian without believing in heaven.

no this guy was saying that as a roman catholic which is a CHRISTian...you dont have to belive in jesus to go to heaven.
he never heard of the spanish inquisition...or all of the many people that were killed in that name of Jesus..for not converting...by the way..they were trying to convert these "heathens" so that they would belive in jesus..and so their souls could be saved.

but dont try to argue with him because he knows what he is talking about...and he is not wrong on this subject.

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Last edited by kirbtastic on Dec-29-2002 at 08:45