Bondor, that post about lucky circumstances is totally idiotic. I consider myself an atheist, and yet I've had quite a lot of lucky circumstances happen to me. Just yesterday I passed a difficult exam by cheating on both written and oral interrogation. I crashed my car last summer with 80km/h, almost hit a car that was comming towards me from the opposite direction, and came out without a scratch. So what, those things don't mean there's a god watching over me. I was lucky, I know, but god had nothing to do with it.

Besides, if you look from a less self centered perspective, you'll see that usually what's beneficial for one individual is harming the others. Say you win lots of money on the lottery. That means someone else didn't win because of you. Or say you managed to cheat on your exam. That means your knowledge on the subject will be weaker, and that will harm the company you work for and the people who buy that company's products. Hell, even if you live through some accident, that only means there'll be less food for the plants in the local ecosystem and therefore less food for the rest of the people in the world. Absolute good and absolute evil don't exist. The good and evil that bible is talking about is that only from the individual/communal perspective.

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1+1=10

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Originally posted by tathi hahahah ok - was part of a government pilot, that helped me get a degree in half the time and at half the cost (only a few people got picked out of thousands) - the amount of times i have been let off by police for major traffic offenses, fck me - i have been very very lucky at professional investing in real estate, i make quite the sum of money plan to retire from my normal job at 20 - plus hundreds of little trivial examples of luck similar to the ones you have given (without having to pray to my imaginary friend, Shambola) anyway back to the bible bashing / astrophysics, preferably astrophysics

cool! good for you. it seems to me like we both have "faith". your faith is in yourself, you believe your lucky, i believe that my luck comes from god. its just a differnt twist on the same concept of faith, we just decided to interpret it differnt ways. you just think my interpretation is rediculous, oh well.

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Originally posted by tathi On a small sociocultural scale, religion may be beneficial for its drones, what of the death and suffering religion has caused on a global scale? throughout time? Including the damage it has had on science?

Put things in perspective: How much suffering, and death has religion stopped on a global scale? Or how much GOOD has it done for Science (think Monks, or Arab-Isalmic Scholars .. they preserved all classical science)?

Also how much death and suffering has Atheisim caused on a global scale? (think Communisim for one). Or how much evil has Atheisim caused in science (think Eugenics)?

See what you seem to fail to understand is that no religion - is a religion. As long as you have ppl like yourself claiming they know the "light" the truth, and that their way is best:

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i have nothing against the "faithful" i pity them because their lives could be so much better.

Then you will have two or more sides, when you have factions you have friction and you will still have, hate, death, suffering, and destruction. So yes if all the world was "atheist" then there would be a lot less of the aforementioned, but I think a similar claim can be said if all the world was just "Chirsitan", or "Muslim", or "Jewish" for that matter.... Then they would simply not argue about religion, or lack of, but on perhaps something else.. say politics.

To me Tathi you repersent everything that is wrong with the sterotype of religion :

You claim your ideology is the only one that exist.
You claim that your ideology is the only truth, there is no other.
You claim all that do not follow your ideology are idiots, stupid, and live pathetic lives compared to those of your ideology.
You believe the world would be a better place if everyone followed your ideology.

Sort of reminds me of another few religions I know... odd.. I hope you do not fail to see the irony in this.

All I can say is have tolerance.

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Originally posted by DrUg_Tit0 Bondor, that post about lucky circumstances is totally idiotic. I consider myself an atheist, and yet I've had quite a lot of lucky circumstances happen to me. Just yesterday I passed a difficult exam by cheating on both written and oral interrogation. I crashed my car last summer with 80km/h, almost hit a car that was comming towards me from the opposite direction, and came out without a scratch. So what, those things don't mean there's a god watching over me. I was lucky, I know, but god had nothing to do with it.

i dont believe in luck or coincidence, i think everything happens for a reason.

it cant be a coincidence that 38 out of 38 times something wonderful has happend because i have prayed for it, what are the odds of that ? 50% chance each one so .5^38 = 3.638 * 10^-12

or .000000000003638 % chance

also why do people say thank you? thank you is used in expressing gratitude, but its also a little more then that it tell that person that you are thanking that you are capable of receiving from them in the future. when someone gives you a dollar if you need a dollar you say 'thank you', because you are grateful and you dont want to come off as an ungrateful person and what if the same situation happens again with the same person, you would like that dollar the second tiem right?

when you get in a crash at 80kmph and dont get a scratch doesnt it make sense to be thankful for that, if you ever got in an crash again wouldnt you like to come out with out a scratch?

so who do you thank?

that how i see it at least you dont have to.

thank you for being respectful

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Last edited by Bondor on Sep-24-2003 at 21:02

- Did we move on to talk about physics now?? .. or.. who came in first, the chicken or the egg?

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Upcoming:

Michael Andrews Feat. Gary Jules - Mad World (Grayed Out Mix)

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Originally posted by Bondor i dont believe in luck or coincidence, i think everything happens for a reason. it cant be a coincidence that 38 out of 38 times something wonderful has happend because i have prayed for it, what are the odds of that ? 50% chance each one so .5^38 = 3.638 * 10^-12 or .000000000003638 % chance

It hasn't happened because you prayed for it. It has most likely happened because you've acted in the right way. But let me ask you this: are people in say, Congo, less religious than you? No, many are even more. Many are good people as well. And yet they live horrible lives. Much worse than I who am declaring my self as an atheist am living.

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also why do people say thank you? thank you is used in expressing gratitude, but its also a little more then that it tell that person that you are thanking that you are capable of receiving from them in the future. when someone gives you a dollar if you need a dollar you say 'thank you', because you are grateful and you dont want to come off as an ungrateful person and what if the same situation happens again with the same person, you would like that dollar the second tiem right? when you get in a crash at 80kmph and dont get a scratch doesnt it make sense to be thankful for that, if you ever got in an crash again wouldnt you like to come out with out a scratch? so who do you thank? that how i see it at least you dont have to. thank you for being respectful

I don't thank anyone because it was a lucky circumstance that caaused such a series of events. There are much better people than me who die on the road every day in car accidents. How do you explain, say, what happened on 11.9.? I'm sure all the people in WTC were unfaithful and mean bunch, because if they prayed a little, then maybe the buildings wouldn't have collapsed.

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1+1=10

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Originally posted by Yoepus Put things in perspective: How much suffering, and death has religion stopped on a global scale? Or how much GOOD has it done for Science (think Monks, or Arab-Isalmic Scholars .. they preserved all classical science)? Also how much death and suffering has Atheisim caused on a global scale? (think Communisim for one). Or how much evil has Atheisim caused in science (think Eugenics)? See what you seem to fail to understand is that no religion - is a religion. As long as you have ppl like yourself claiming they know the "light" the truth, and that their way is best: Then you will have two or more sides, when you have factions you have friction and you will still have, hate, death, suffering, and destruction. So yes if all the world was "atheist" then there would be a lot less of the aforementioned, but I think a similar claim can be said if all the world was just "Chirsitan", or "Muslim", or "Jewish" for that matter.... Then they would simply not argue about religion, or lack of, but on perhaps something else.. say politics. To me Tathi you repersent everything that is wrong with the sterotype of religion : You claim your ideology is the only one that exist. You claim that your ideology is the only truth, there is no other. You claim all that do not follow your ideology are idiots, stupid, and live pathetic lives compared to those of your ideology. You believe the world would be a better place if everyone followed your ideology. Sort of reminds me of another few religions I know... odd.. I hope you do not fail to see the irony in this. All I can say is have tolerance.

great post.
i too used to be a complete athiest (and came from a family of such). But using basicly the same logic above i've come to the same point, agnostisism/deism. i could care less about a person's religion given that he has put enough thought into it. i dont even really know where i stand, but i'm willing to absorb all sides. dont think of it so much as religion but philosophies on how to live life. Christianity, Islam, Judiasim, Tao, Bhuddism, Hinduism... chuck out the folklore and fantasised stories, at the the heart of each lies a teaching of how to live life as a moral and well individual, for the betterment of yourself and society. in a field where beings can't be proven to exisist or not exisist, in a field where no one religion/philosophy is better/worse then the other, it matters not where you land. tolerance.

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If God is the answer, it must have been a very stupid question.

quote:

Originally posted by Izzy tolerance.

And finally, from the distance, a few voices of reason...

Good discussions that turn into narrow minded ideological flame wars are the primary reason why I've not been a regular poster here for some time...

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Einen Moment von Freundlichkeit wie daß in einem Traum

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Originally posted by Yoepus Also how much death and suffering has Atheisim caused on a global scale? (think Communisim for one).

How much death and suffering has capitalism caused?

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Originally posted by Spin Doctor How much death and suffering has capitalism caused?

I don't won't to alleviate this thread from its religious appointment, so to mute this point all I will say is; At least you don't see capitalist societies massacre their own.

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Yoepus To me Tathi you repersent everything that is wrong with the sterotype of religion :

I act differently offline, i just like to stir up some shit, keeps me entertained, i have a few christian friends

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Bondor cool! good for you. it seems to me like we both have "faith". your faith is in yourself, you believe your lucky, i believe that my luck comes from god. its just a differnt twist on the same concept of faith, we just decided to interpret it differnt ways. you just think my interpretation is rediculous, oh well.

this is true, i believe i am god, i believe you are god, all humans are narcissistic hedonists, there is no use hiding it under a blanket or religious ethics

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Nietzsche "Morality is the best of all devices for leading mankind by the nose."

read heinlein's Stranger in a strange land, one of the most insightful books ever written - "thou art god"

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Yoepus I don't won't to alleviate this thread from its religious appointment, so to mute this point all I will say is; At least you don't see capitalist societies massacre their own.

yet they enslave their own

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Originally posted by tathi I act differently offline, i just like to stir up some shit, keeps me entertained, i have a few christian friends

Why don't you go buy a TV and watch it like everyone else?

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yet they enslave their own

ummm sure... ok assuming so, what do you prefer, death or enslavement?