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Originally posted by OrangestO I was in the military. I joined because I needed three hots, a cot and a steady paycheck. The majority of people I served with were in a similar position, joining to escape poverty or looking for an opportunity to excel at something because they couldn't make it on the outside – whether that's because they didn't care to do more or had limited means in trying. I think soldiers who serve in other countries, where they are drafted and aren't given benefits for their service, can be considered heroes. But in the States, not so much. And yet I have a few veterans on my Facebook who constantly bombard my timeline with how much they mean to this country, how great of a hero they are, and blah blah blah. Get over it, man. You're out of the military, move the fuck on. I think veterans should definitely receive help and perks for their service after transitioning back into the civilian world, which isn't happening as much as it should, but fuck if some of these guys can't let go of their past and - as they would say in the military - drive on. IMHO, this "hero" word just gets thrown around so much that it's lost all meaning and context of what a hero really is. People call soldiers heroes, but then when they come back they get the shaft. Many are homeless, uncared for, and left behind. Is this how you treat your so-called heroes? Many of these "heroes" have no other choice but to join the military because of the environments they come from, circumstances they're born into, and lives they lead. They turn to the military for a way to escape and, no doubt about it, the plethora of benefits and advantages the governments uses to lure people into joining. I just co-authored a book that is in production addressing the issue of veterans who leave the military and have trouble transitioning to civilian life (a self-help manual). And yes, I'm a veteran myself. So excuse me if you disagree with my stance, but I do have a vested interest in this topic even though I may have an unpopular opinion about this specific matter. I'm curious about other people's opinions about this.

In describing your service, you explained how you yourself acted in your self interest from volunteering to ets, so it makes perfect sense that you don't hold service members to be anything more than reflections of you.

Soldiers twist skulls.
Veterans twist jars.

Fuk u ******. I'ma twis' mah DICK

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Originally posted by Sushipunk Shit yeah, that's what I've been saying for years.

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Originally posted by bARTovsky Soldiers twist skulls. Veterans twist jars. Fuk u ******. I'ma twis' mah DICK

QUIT ASREISKIN'

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Originally posted by Sushipunk Shit yeah, that's what I've been saying for years.

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Originally posted by de+ In describing your service, you explained how you yourself acted in your self interest from volunteering to ets, so it makes perfect sense that you don't hold service members to be anything more than reflections of you.

Shut up, moron.

/ad hominem attack

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Originally posted by OrangestO Soldiers cast their ethical, moral, and political beliefs aside and buy into the fighting for the red, white, and blue through and through mentally. They allow themselves to be broken down and built back up into thinking they're heroes and fighting for a worthy cause. The government preys on these individuals who don't have shit to show for their existence in the civilian life and turns them into military robots by enticing and luring them into joining by providing things they never had access to. That's why I think soldiers - generally - aren't heroes and more just byproducts of the system. Poverty leads people to look for any opportunity to escape. The government and military provides that, but at a cost. The media just fuels this machine by painting a picture of the ultimate proud soldier dying in Iraq and serving his country. And for what, again? I mean, how many people do you think would join and risk their lives for their country if these benefits weren't available to them? Yea, some backwood country conservatives who don't know any better. Who else? In my book I talk about how soldiers transition back into the civilian world and feel like they are entitled to everything because of all the hype surrounding what they supposedly did for their country. You're a hero, so you should be treated as such, right? It's natural, because you've been indoctrinated since boot camp to have this sort of "pride" in what you're doing for your country and the public just adds to it by stroking your ego and giving you praise - until you're not a soldier, anymore. I was there, at one point. Then I woke up and realized no one in this world gives a fuck about me serving, not even myself. It's shame how many are blinded by this shit. And that's the reason I wrote this book because transitioning soldiers definitely need to know about what they're facing and the tools they can use to help them overcome the challenges of the civilian way of life. Most of these guys have never stepped on US soil as civilians in their adult life because they were recruited out of high school (recruiters prey on these kids because they are most vulnerable). A simple thing like writing a resume can be difficult. I'm glad I had someone take me under his wing in this regard. Heroes? Nah son. And yet a lot of soldiers lean on that crutch in the civilian world. It's very tiring.

Do you realize that most of generally don't agree with you about this? That is not to say that there is some truth in there. No, most who serve are not heroes and the public does over do it with the respect thing. But for the most part, the image you have constructed looks like a bad Roger Corman movie version of the US military.

Your assessment looks like you are projecting personal experience onto the population of those who have served as a whole. Probably not a good idea.

I would suggest you throw out your initial assumptions and start looking for how most of those who have served viewed their service. You may also find that how the public and veterans from different eras view their service over time may have changed and might even be changing now. That is a book I might want to read. Especially would want to read it if you could pinpoint when and why perspectives have changed.

What you are describing so far sounds more like a personal ax grinding effort. Not likely to be a good read.

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"I like persons better than principles, and I like persons with no principles better than anything else in the world"

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Originally posted by SYSTEM-J you're fooling nobody except yourself.

Says the overconfident sophist who hides his lack of knowledge and errors in arguments via extensive worthless padding.

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Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN her response was along the lines of "oh yeah, well i bet i could beat you at pictionary".

It's pretty obvious that written English is in fact not the only worthwhile skill in the entire world. Yes comments like that are sometimes a bit silly but you guys actually have very little to assess me on. Would you prefer GPAs? It seems like a serving of bullshit would be more appropriate however. At least in response to SystemJ's querys. By the way, if you guys want me GPAs at the end of this year I'll post them.

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Originally posted by Dykes_on_Jay Yes Psyhell, I would like fries with that.

I'll have my CCNP by the end of the year. There's no way I'll be working anything remotely like that any time soon.

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Originally posted by Psyshell By the way, if you guys want me GPAs at the end of this year I'll post them.

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Originally posted by Psyshell Says the overconfident sophist who hides his lack of knowledge and errors in arguments via extensive worthless padding.

Those errors in arguments you keep failing to point out.

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Originally posted by Psyshell Yes comments like that are sometimes a bit silly but you guys actually have very little to assess me on.

We have your thoughts, opinions and reasoning, the utter drivel you type out on this forum every day. Why is it that stupid people on Internet forums seem to blame their idiocy on "written English", as if the bullshit logic they spout would somehow make more sense if it were written slightly better? I could sell you a thousand $10 words to tart up your posts and they'd still make far less sense than mine.

___________________
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Originally posted by Joz Do you realize that most of generally don't agree with you about this? That is not to say that there is some truth in there. No, most who serve are not heroes and the public does over do it with the respect thing. But for the most part, the image you have constructed looks like a bad Roger Corman movie version of the US military. Your assessment looks like you are projecting personal experience onto the population of those who have served as a whole. Probably not a good idea. I would suggest you throw out your initial assumptions and start looking for how most of those who have served viewed their service. You may also find that how the public and veterans from different eras view their service over time may have changed and might even be changing now. That is a book I might want to read. Especially would want to read it if you could pinpoint when and why perspectives have changed. What you are describing so far sounds more like a personal ax grinding effort. Not likely to be a good read.

Do you realize that I generally don't give a fuck?

I'm not projecting as much as I'm talking from personal experience that you can't speak from because you didn't serve (I assume?). Sure, I have my own opinions on the matter based on my own perspective, but that doesn't discount the fact that I've talked to, lived amongst, and shared moments with soldiers from all backgrounds throughout my brief military career. Hell, my father was in the Navy. Although he agrees with some of my points regarding "the system," he also argues that the military gave him an opportunity that others didn't (immigrant who escaped communism). That's another story for another day, though.

Fortunately for me, I had many things go right for me to overcome/escape the perils of the military (for example, no kids/family to support) once the light bulb went off in my head that this wasn't right. Many people who are in the service are there because they're either tied down by that obligation (family) or have some other obstacle in the way outside of the military that they don't think they can overcome (financial, lack of education, etc.).

Sure, there are cases of men and women who just want to serve their country and that's perfectly fine. I don't fault them for their patriotism; I respect them.

But that doesn't mean there's not a system preying on the vulnerabilities and weaknesses of those who are at the bottom of the food chain so to speak in our society, which is really the discussion this thread was meant to initiate.

As for your idea of interviewing past, present, and future veterans for a book - I like it. There are stories that support and argue my own stance on this issue, and I welcome them all with a listening ear. This was meant as a debate, not to sit here trying to prove who's right and wrong. After all, it's not a clear-cut black and white issue.

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Originally posted by OrangestO As for your idea of interviewing past, present, and future veterans for a book - I like it. There are stories that support and argue my own stance on this issue, and I welcome them all with a listening ear. This was meant as a debate, not to sit here trying to prove who's right and wrong. After all, it's not a clear-cut black and white issue.

You need just as many that disagree with you as those that do if you want balance. Otherwise you are heading in a seriously wrong direction.

I can think of quite a few cases where you are going to get mixed perspectives. One that I know of was a distant cousin of mine that was much like your father. Escaped from Yugoslavia in the early 60's and joined the US army and hated it. He definitely joined for ideological reasons.

Other cases like my own will also differ. First time around my primary reason for joining was that I was not yet ready for college. But things like serving my country was also one of the many reasons I joined and it was a good experience. Later on in school I joined ROTC just in time for the cold war to end. wound up as a National Guard officer and did not enjoy that period of service. Not what I had planned on. But I have very few regrets.

___________________
"I like persons better than principles, and I like persons with no principles better than anything else in the world"

Don't get me wrong, I cherish my experience and have very few regrets regarding it (met a lot of great people and traveled to a lot of great places). But this is speaking from the perspective of being out of it and on to bigger and better things. I can't say that if I stayed in and didn't "see the light" that I'd have the same thoughts about it. I would've gone to Iraq and who knows where I'd be and in what state of mind. From that perspective, I would've likely regretted not taking the risk of getting kicked out and taking my chances on the outside like I did.

In a weird way, it worked out in my favor, even though I left the military with literally nothing to show for my three years. At the time, I didn't think of it as a sacrifice but simply that the military fucked me over (I remember being pissed when I was out-processing and they garnished my last paycheck even though I served the time to earn it). I drove off the post with 1000 miles to drive and half a gas tank. Again, that's another story for another day. Today, though, I realize I lost it all for a reason and since then I've gained invaluable things because of it.

I don't know what/who to thank for it all, but I'm grateful. I just wish more people in the military would open their eyes and take the leap of faith when it's their time to choose to ETS or reenlist for another term (my case of getting myself kicked out is an extreme example, obviously).

Thanks. That gives me a much clearer picture. You do have an ax to grind. I have no idea if you have a legitimate problem there since I don't know the details. Certainly some people have been screwed over. Some have not. If you do not want to share what went wrong that is your business.

But for a lot of us it did work out better. I kept my end of my contract and for better or worse the army kept there end up. I did not get everything I wanted but I did get everything that was promised. (Note that my last contact with the department of the army was them informing me that I was dismissed from the IRR because I had not submitted a full length photo of me so they could promote me to 1LT. No, I am not kidding.)

BTW, what did you do in the army? I would ask for your MOS but those have changed over the years and I don't know what the current ones are.

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"I like persons better than principles, and I like persons with no principles better than anything else in the world"