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Originally posted by torontotrance Now....I'm not saying mp3's are right or wrong here. Do you think that AVB, Tiesto and Ferry Corsten could have been big in the United States and Canada without mp3's of their sets and some of their productions?.....actually all 3 of them would be the first to tell you...without mp3's...none of them would be where they are today. Add Sander Kleinenberg to that list...

I'll pose that question to Armin and others today and post their responses.

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Paul Van Dyk - Today [DJMaytag's Dreamy Dub Mix]

don't bother....we already know their responses. They don't like mp3's that much but will tell you without it....they probably would not have cracked North America that fast. I've asked Sander Kleinenberg that question anyway and he said that mp3's have helped him....because without that....most ppl did not know his name.

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Originally posted by DJMaytag I'll pose that question to Armin and others today and post their responses.

actually when tiesto was asked what do u think of mp3s, he said altho there not good for the music industry, he wouldnt be where he is today without them.

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Originally posted by DJMaytag I'll pose that question to Armin and others today and post their responses.

Armin and ferry have already said they wouldn't be where they are today without MP3's, not that I completely agree with the whole argument, if you like a track, you should buy it.

Then you have deejays like Dave Clarke who have instead of slamming mp3's have embraced them and worked with them. Dave Clarke is at the forefront of technology....with his website...shoutcast mixes and the fact that he releases some of stuff on mp3's....icrunch.com I think it is. Anyway..some ppl have totally shunned the mp3's aka MIKE and LOLO but dave clarke has embraced it....interesting to see...what happens in 5 yrs.

i personally, get vinyl eventually...AFTER I'VE GIVEN IT A LISTEN ON A DLED MP3 and then once i have that vinyl i rip it to cdr so that i don't ruin the vinyl...i didn't used to always do that and my vinyl would were out, so i do that now so they stay nice...i really just want that pretty vinyl to sit in the bucket and look nice

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Originally posted by DJMaytag You don't need to buy a pair of Technics 1200's if all you wanna do is listen to a single record. A second hand table can be found for $100 or less.

I dont have the money to spend on a turntable, nor the desire to own one now. Why do I have to/ or should I have to own a turntable just to listen to my favorite tunes ? ? ? ? .. atleast for now I cant have nor own. I go once in a while to record stores and listen to some records just to see whats new. Its so damm unconftable and not fun at all, unless you like DJing and so on . Im not interested on them for now . Maybe later, my point is, I dont think its right to go and buy one just to listen to your stuff . I cant afford it. Too complicated, you gotta buy the needles once in a while, plus, the records dont last forever . And you know it, and me liking my stuff, I like playing it all the time. Mp3 is the easist thing, you can record to CD-R and can listen to it anywhere.

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I'm in the US too, and I've had to shell out some $$$ to get some of those same Trancemaster CD's too, and they're NOT that expensive. If you can't get them cheaper, I should be able to get them for you thur my record store, so PM me.

Dide I mention to you I aint working ? .. my priority is saving money for college. I praise and love trance, but when it comes to spending money, Im concious with what I spend it for. One of those CD's wont give me a living in the future. And Im talking not only for me, but for probably a great percentabe here that cant buy one of this. Plus, the latests and newest tunes arent always on any CD . Some are only on 12" and I think I've talked about that allready. If I have some money to spend, Id let you know though.

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I'm sorry, but that's BS. Trance exploded quite some time ago, and the internet had nothing to do with it (MP3 wasn't even a well known term at the time.)

Mmmmm Ok, trance started like 13 - 14 years ago .. but we all know that trance EXPLODED around 1998 - 1999 and on. And on that time, I remember NAPSTER and I remember there was internet . Ask me and many how did we get to know many of the trance tunes, and I personally thanx the internet and mp3, otherwise Id be stuck in my house all hyped up listening to some Ian van Dahl on the radio.

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It's nice to see artists who got exposure by letting their music circulate for free on sites like MP3.com, but remember, they CHOSE to do so.

Yeah, and even so, the greedy bastards sued mp3.com because this artists werent going to the record labels instead.

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I've said this before, I do NOT have a problem with livesets that aren't commercially available being shared. The main beef is with FULL rips of individual tracks - and I may even be more annoyed at those who HAVE a given tune that's in a mix, but they don't feel that's good enough for them, and that they must have the full rip instead. Doesn't sound like someone who's truly looking to enjoy the music, does it?

Well, when you really love and like a tune, you will want the full rip, sometimes impossible because they arent just released, but only available in the only one CD that somehow, got its hands on that so much loved song. That examply fits best for Jose Amnesia - The Eternal back in 1999 when it was only on that gatecrasher cd, and on PvDs muzik mix CD, and some PvD livesets.

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I've got plenty of CD's that I only like one or two tunes, and I don't regret buying any of them because I enjoy them so much. If you truly liked a track or two so much, then you wouldn't have a problem with shelling out a few bucks to buy them then, right? Or is that just your justification?

I've spend rediculous amount of money on certain CD's like Gatecrasher ones and the first Euphorias. The rest are ridiculously expensive, containing, yes some quality tunes but the others you could find easily now on the most commercialized CD's here in the US.
I dont regret buying this IMPORT CD's that I mentioned, just because they were on sale at the time, otherwise, I wouldnt have SPEND almost 50 bucks ! ( CDNOW ) . The nearest store that contains this CD's is like 1 hour far, not including traffic and so on .. and selling them for 40 .. if I include gas it would go up to .. almost 50 anyways, with tax and so on . Do the math. And I will say it again, when I can afford for them quality CD's, I will not think twice on getting them, but I will not dig and bankrup my parents for doing so, and I think many here think the same.

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I will agree that the way record contracts are structured leaves a lot to be desired, but if they lose out on sales because of mp3 rips, then the artist gets a smaller amount from that 10%, don't they?

Yeah, its a stupid game, but the thing is, we consumers, at times like now, dont have the luxury to spend that much money on something thats suppost to cost like 5 - 6 dollars . YES ! .. a CD costs like 10 cents to make ! .. at most 1 dollar.

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Upcoming:

Michael Andrews Feat. Gary Jules - Mad World (Grayed Out Mix)

Yeah i download a shit load of MP3 and i always try and get the newest stuff...
ASHLAND/INFUSION/DIGBY & OLIVER/HIP SERVICE/GLOAT Audiotherapy Presents: My Idea Of House ATSAMP double 12" £6.39 £19.17
FUTURESHOCK Frequency FUJU 009 12" £4.25 £4.25
KOGLIN, Mike The Silence ACA 9832-12 12" £5.10 £5.10
RANDOM FACTOR What I Need (remixes) VIS 081 12" £4.25 £4.25
HARLEM ZIP CODE Club Triad EP PAP 086 12" £3.83 £3.83
FOUR ELEMENTS, The (RUI DA SILVA) Fire (repress) RDS 10WL 12" £6.80 £6.80
CRITICAL PHASE The Phase Effect REG 71 12" £3.79 £3.79
JONH & RASKAL Drop The Beat RMR 015 12" £5.95 £5.95
RED STAR Pretender (Danny Briottet production) 10KG 019 12" £4.25 £4.25
SMOKE Random As SAV 003 12" £4.25 £4.25
TECHNO TOOLZ Techno Toolz Volume 2 (techno loops/scratches/samples EP) SHOT-T 02 12" £5.10 £5.10
BT Remember 43970 double 12" £8.51 £8.51
DR KUCHO The Chase VA 008 12" £4.25 £4.25
SOLID SESSIONS Janeiro 12TIV 175 12" £3.40 £3.40
KYBOSH Revolution BARQ 025 12" £6.39 £6.39
POLE FOLDER Enter The Rhythm BED 29 12" £4.25 £4.25
REDANKA Out Of The Dark WHO 064 12" £4.25 £4.25
GUVENEN, Yunus Delta EP SILVER 046 12" £4.25 £4.25
GABRIEL, Josh Wave 3 NEBTX 033/WAVEX 3 12" £4.25 £4.25
LUZON Manila Sunrise YR 095 double 12" £9.36 £9.36
LAYO & BUSHWACKA! Night Works XLLP 154 2xLP £8.30 £8.30
FORME Kick A Hole MAPA 015 12" £3.79 £3.79
VARIOUS mixed by DJ FLIX Taking Care Of Business (incl. Kiril, Force Mass Motion vs Dylan Rhymes, DJ Hal, PFN, etc.) 10KGLP 04 2xLP £7.45 £7.45
VARIOUS mixed by DANNY McMILLAN High Altitude Breaks Level 01 (incl. Aquasky vs Master Blaster, Uptown Connection, Precision Cuts, Dubmarines, etc.) FLIGHTLP 02 3xLP £10.21 £10.21
ILS Soul Trader MAPAVLP 03 3xLP £11.06 £11.06
VARIOUS Adam Freeland: On Tour (incl. Fluke (Adam Freeland/Ils remix). Bushwacka!, Bassbin Twins, Pressure Drop, etc.) MAPAVLP 002 4xLP £11.71 £11.71
VARIOUS 4 Vini: Forever Young LP (Botchit & Scarper) (incl. Atomic Hooligan, Rennie Pilgrem/Klaus, Dee-Kline, Backdraft, etc.) BOS2LP 015 4xLP £11.71 £11.71
CHEMICAL BROTHERS, The Come With Us

But ya know what with purchases like that????? I think im most deffinately supporting the artist not to mention i buy like 1 or 2 times a month which equals about half the money i make

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"The only real voyage of discovery consists not in seeking new landscapes but in having new eyes"

east west - the love i lost

the original tune not that remix of ferry with no energy at all!
i'm glad the reconstruction is a class!

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"Time Changes.. Only I can predict Its path..", -The TimeMaster

Click here for all the Holland TA's, there are a lot of them!!!

Your still a music pirate like we are then if you have 3% of your tunes on mp3 and not on vinyl or CD, now are you trying to see we are bigger pirates then you or are you just being a hipocrite?

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Image removed, is over max allowd file size - see your profile options for the advance sig editor - Wicked Neo

looks like DJ Maytag is going to supply us with a never ending supply of music like the goody 2 shoes he is who's never done anything illegal in his life and god forbid can't let us get some music without paying for it

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Originally posted by Vesa It's very sad that so many people miss out great tracks just because they are old. The main reason is probably that many people in this culture are obsessed with new tracks. However, the secondary reason is that there are few information sources where to find out easily about old producers and tracks.

Oh? Have you looked? Have you visited any of these sites?

http://www.discogs.com/
http://www.harthouse.com/seiten/rel...el_19921997.htm (w/ RealAudio!)
http://www.tursa.franken.de/OliverLieb_discog.html

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Originally posted by Vesa And even if there was, there is no library where one can borrow most of those tracks.

Who said there ought to be one? I didn't know that free music was our god given right?

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Originally posted by Vesa AG used to be a kind of trance library where one could check out many tracks, even if the selection wasn't perfect even there. Now there's no trance library. RIAA committed a heinous crime against the trance community, the consequences of which will be seen only later. Reminds me about when Europeans destroyed the Indian cultures in their greed.

WHAT!?!? You can't be serious that the RIAA[/B[ is the one comitting the crime? Your sense of reality (maybe even morality) is pretty skewed if you honestly believe this...

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[b]Originally posted by Vesa No release -> no problem. The trance library I'm dreaming about will simply not have those tunes. No-one else can get them if the artist keeps them to himself.

OK, but isn't that EXACTLY what ppl here are looking for? (ie tunes that aren't gonna be released?)

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Originally posted by Vesa Even though I think that sometimes the good of trance community overweighs the good of an individual producer. At least we can't go and ask from all 1000 trance producers if we can use his tune. And even if we could, they are not the rights holders, so they couldn't give us a legal permission.

And people are calling ME arrogant?!?! Who the hell let YOU decide what's best for someone, especially when it's in regard to someone else's intellectual property?

How would you feel if someone just up and borrowed yolur car, because it was for the greater good? I don't think you'd appreciate it too much.

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Originally posted by Vesa Why wouldn't heritage of trance culture include tracks from 1999-2000? I've devoted hundreds of hours into historical research of those years, and I can assure you that I found many interesting things that completely changed my initial ideas of what had happened during those years. I will probably post articles about them on the upcoming discography site, so you can take a look, and judge by yourself.

You were talking about the history of trance and track from 1999 to 2000 being lost, so I thought maybe you weren't aware that trance was around prior to 1999, that's all.

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Originally posted by Vesa Besides, the special feature articles I intend to write will stir some interest into older tracks and overlooked trance subcultures. Even if only 1% of all trance fans will benefit, that's enough. Trance community needs a small number of very knowledgeable people, and learning materials to educate them can only be written using huge mp3 archives.

I don't think an mp3 archive is necessary to convey the message...

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Originally posted by Vesa When I myself started my trance hobby, Dancemania's site about producers and their discographies was irreplaceable. There are so many tracks out there. If one goes to a record shop, and randomly buys some of them, one completely misses the picture. One needs archives (both track archives and discographies). Of course, one can try to cope without them. Just like trying to become a writer without going to libraries or reading history of literature. Good luck.

So the analogy is that if I wanted to write a history about cars, then I ought to steal one of EVERY card ever made?

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Originally posted by Vesa Hopefully you will be around for the next 50 years, so that if some retro fan or trance historian wants to listen to those tracks, he can ring your doorbell, and borrow those CDs.

No, but he could always either ask me my perspective on how trance started, or go out and buy some retro compilations. This is based on the assumption that the music industry can survive the stealing of tunes over the internet.

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Originally posted by Vesa Seriously, I study computer science, and know something about availability of information. One needs a sufficient number of replicas, so that at least one is available when someone needs it. The number of vinyl copies is too small to fulfill the need of availability. Especially as over time, the number of vinyl copies decreases drastically (they will be worn out, or sold to persons outside the trance community at flea markets). BTW, now that you say that you bought tracks on CDs, I sincerely doubt if you understand the problem. The majority of tracks I'm talking about were never released on CD singles, or included on any CD compilations. Probably never on commercial mixes either. I'm not trying to question your expertize in trance in general, which may well be better than mine, only in this one specific question of little-known trance.

I find it hard to believe that any halfway decent track has NEVER made it onto some sort of CD compilation and/or commercial DJ mix CD. I know that at one point in time, CD comps were the primary source of many tracks, and oftentimes those wouldn't be released on vinyl.

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Originally posted by Vesa IMO everyone should have enough reason to buy his share of vinyls or CDs. Record labels also need money, and they are to thank for the availability of this great music. To everyone according to his needs is my motto. However, Rank 1 - Black Snow was re-pressed. I wonder if the demand arose because of its inclusion on ITWT 003, or because of mp3 sharing Thanks for the info (links please). I'm going to check them out. It's also beneficial to share information about good distributors and second-hand shops. However, I started mp3 downloading when distributors were fed up by me pestering them with obviously unfulfillable back orders of old tracks.

PM me and I'll get ya the phone number for my record store. BTW, distributors don't sell to the general public, only record stores, so it's no wonder that they weren't able to help you.

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Originally posted by Vesa You are hereby invited to compile discographies of trance tracks made in 1990-1996 for TDS. We don't have them yet because I haven't found any decent release listings for that time period.

See above.

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Originally posted by Vesa There are 10.000 - 20.000 released trance vinyls. "Plenty" may mean that 5.000 of them are still available if one looks hard enough. In 10 years maybe 1000 of them will be available. That is not enough for historical purposes. It distorts the conception of what trance was like because the most underground releases will be ignored. But that is not the essence of the problem. The problem is that the vinyls are not available in one place. No-one can afford to buy them all. But he still needs access to them all if he's serious about being knowledgeable enough. I admit it may be morally wrong to compile a centralized mp3 collection, and it's certainly legally wrong. But I don't care. My love of trance music and of its cultural value overweighs legality and morality. However, in other forms of art this is understood, and accepted legally. There are libraries for a literature student. Students of arts can go to museums.

Don't museums generally charge admission? Maybe if a "Trance Museum" is established, there should be a subscription charge in place? I wouldn't be opposed to that if that was in place.

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Originally posted by Vesa I have MANY more important points to make, but this post is already much longer than reasonable, so I'll write them some other time. Anyway, flexibility, availability and realism are the keys why mp3 sharing is absolutely necessary. Besides, people collect mp3s partly because human beings have an innate instinct for collecting things. Do you think evolution developed this instinct for no reason? Collectors of mp3s are instinctively doing the right thing, and those who oppose it will notice their mistake only when a drought strikes.

But like I said before, whatever justification it takes to make you sleep at night...