quote:

Originally posted by occrider http://www.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-Semitism It has its own word probably because anti-semetism has existed for over 2000 years unlike the relatively newer forms of discrimination/hate.

i see.

well, at any rate, anti semitism is an inaccurate term. i'm semeti, but i'm christian.

___________________

It has to start somewhere,
It has to start sometime,
What better place then here?
What better time than now?
--Rage Against the Machine

quote:

Originally posted by Shakka And what of it if I am? Would that change your already negative opinion of me? Does it matter to you if I am Jewish/Christian/Muslim/Ewok? Are you an Ewok? Better question: Who said, "And its the internet man... relax."

I was just curious thats all....didnt mean anything! The only thing that I would realize is why you are so adamantly pro-israel.

Its the internet man...relax.

___________________
"This place isn't big enough for me to blow it up."
-MARCO V

quote:

Originally posted by Haunted oh they are human,but what does that change? they still target civilians,something israel does NOT do this is the 21st century you wont get anything done by suicide bombing,you need to do it politically, palestinians are just killing themselves

And what do you say to this? I posted this earlier but you either failed to read it or you probably ignored it like other pro-israeli fundementalists who are blinded by their faith.

quote:

Since the Palestinian uprising started in late September 2000, more than 1,500 Palestinians, and 400 Israelis have been killed (as of April 12, 2002), the vast majority on both sides being unarmed civilians. Most of the deadly violence against innocent civilians, therefore, has been committed by Israeli forces and has been directed at Palestinians. Israel and its supporters claim that while Palestinian suicide bombers deliberately target Israeli civilians, Israel tries to avoid harming Palestinian civilians and that those who have died are "collateral damage." Hence, they argue, there is no moral equivalence between the killing of civilians by Israel and Palestinians. This defies both common sense and all the available evidence. On the one hand, Israel wants us to believe that 400 of its own civilians were deliberately targeted, while more than three times as many dead Palestinians all somehow just got in the way of what Israel claims is its humane and disciplined army. It is, in essence, an argument that 1,500 people all died by accident. Every human rights group that has examined Israel's practices has documented systematic and deliberate use of violence targeted at unarmed Palestinian civilians by Israeli forces. Physicians for Human Rights USA which investigated the high number of Palestinian deaths and injuries in the first months of the Intifada, concluded that: "the pattern of injuries seen in many victims did not reflect IDF [Israel Defense Forces] use of firearms in life-threatening situations but rather indicated targeting solely for the purpose of wounding or killing." [Source: PHR USA, 22 November 2000] This finding was based on "the totality of the evidence" the investigators collected about : "the high number of gunshots to the head; the volume of serious, disabling thigh injuries; the inappropriate firing of rubber bullets and rubber-coated steel bullets at close range; and the high proportion of Palestinian injuries and deaths." The findings of Amnesty International and Human Rights Watch confirm this pattern. Israeli human rights group B'Tselem has documented and condemned the targeted use of violence against Palestinian civilians and has found evidence of systematic torture of thousands of Palestinian detainees, including children. What has been confirmed by human rights groups has also been observed directly by journalists. In October 2001, Harper's magazine published the "Gaza Diary" of journalist Chris Hedges. Hedges' entry for June 17, 2001 provides even more shocking evidence of the wanton and deliberate killing of Palestinian children by Israeli soldiers at Gaza's Khan Yunis refugee camp. Hedges writes: "I sit in the shade of a palm-roofed hut on the edge of the dunes, momentarily defeated by the heat, the grit, the jostling crowds, the stench of the open sewers and rotting garbage. A friend of Azmi's brings me, on a tray, a cold glass of tart, red carcade juice." "Barefoot boys, clutching kites made out of scraps of paper and ragged soccer balls, squat a few feet away under scrub trees. Men in flowing white or gray galabias -- homespun robes -- smoke cigarettes in the shade of slim eaves. Two emaciated donkeys, their ribs protruding, are tethered to wooden carts with rubber wheels." "It is still. The camp waits, as if holding its breath. And then, out of the dry furnace air, a disembodied voice crackles over a loudspeaker." ""Come on, dogs," the voice booms in Arabic. "Where are all the dogs of Khan Younis? Come! Come!"" "I stand up. I walk outside the hut. The invective continues to spew: "Son of a bitch!" "Son of a whore!" "Your mother's ****!"" "The boys dart in small packs up the sloping dunes to the electric fence that separates the camp from the Jewish settlement. They lob rocks toward two armored jeeps parked on top of the dune and mounted with loudspeakers. Three ambulances line the road below the dunes in anticipation of what is to come." "A percussion grenade explodes. The boys, most no more than ten or eleven years old, scatter, running clumsily across the heavy sand. They descend out of sight behind a sandbank in front of me. There are no sounds of gunfire. The soldiers shoot with silencers. The bullets from the M-16 rifles tumble end over end through the children's slight bodies. Later, in the hospital, I will see the destruction: the stomachs ripped out, the gaping holes in limbs and torsos." "Yesterday at this spot the Israelis shot eight young men, six of whom were under the age of eighteen. One was twelve. This afternoon they kill an eleven-year-old boy, Ali Murad, and seriously wound four more, three of whom are under eighteen. Children have been shot in other conflicts I have covered -- death squads gunned them down in El Salvador and Guatemala, mothers with infants were lined up and massacred in Algeria, and Serb snipers put children in their sights and watched them crumple onto the pavement in Sarajevo -- but I have never before watched soldiers entice children like mice into a trap and murder them for sport." There can be no doubt that Israeli troops have been targeting innocent Palestinian civilians for death from the beginning of the uprising. This understanding was also reflected in UN Security Council Resolution 1322, passed on October 7, 2000, which "Condemns acts of violence, especially the excessive use of force against Palestinians, resulting in injury and loss of human life." In making the moral superiority claim, Israel's apologists are either shamelessly denying the irrefutable evidence cited above and are simply lying, or they are asserting that some forms of murder are morally superior to other forms of murder.

So in fact, the IDF does target innocents... becuase many feel animosity towards them and the suicide bombers that spring from their people.

Can you tell me how a man in a wheel chair, in clear view of a tank can get crushed even as he holds a white flag, and then call that an "accident"?

Oh yeah, i forgot if it aint an accident, then he is a terrorist who will ride onto a bus with his wheelchair and bombs and kill everyone.

___________________
"This place isn't big enough for me to blow it up."
-MARCO V

OK i have a thought on this.
Shouldnt a country with allot of Jewish people make sure that conditions which support genocide dont exist? THeres everything u need for it to occur.

quote:

Originally posted by Mikado OK i have a thought on this. Shouldnt a country with allot of Jewish people make sure that conditions which support genocide dont exist? THeres everything u need for it to occur.

If thats the results you get to when you actually try and think, I don't even want to know what happens when you don't.

quote:

Originally posted by Cyrus King And what do you say to this? I posted this earlier but you either failed to read it or you probably ignored it like other pro-israeli fundementalists who are blinded by their faith.

Your article says nothing. It says more Palestinians civilians die then Israeli civilians, therefore Israel must be evil. Thats the wrong conclusion for a rational stand. We don't judge who is moral, or who is a terrorist by how many people they are able to kill as I am sure you know.

Your article is an opiniated editorial that references a human rights group report (which I am unclear how or under what conditions it was conducted) without looking into the report. It just says Israel is "killing to much more civlians then it should"

quote:

So in fact, the IDF does target innocents... becuase many feel animosity towards them and the suicide bombers that spring from their people. [quote] Can you tell me how a man in a wheel chair, in clear view of a tank can get crushed even as he holds a white flag, and then call that an "accident"?

Can you tell me how it was not?

Didn't they run over a hippie protestor a few feet infront of a bulldozer? Perhaps one doesn't consdier that tanks are farsighted...?

quote:

Originally posted by Yoepus Your article says nothing. It says more Palestinians civilians die then Israeli civilians, therefore Israel must be evil. Thats the wrong conclusion for a rational stand. We don't judge who is moral, or who is a terrorist by how many people they are able to kill as I am sure you know. Your article is an opiniated editorial that references a human rights group report (which I am unclear how or under what conditions it was conducted) without looking into the report. It just says Israel is "killing to much more civlians then it should"

HAHHAHAHAHA...thats what you do when you get stuck eh? You totally dismiss the article and findings as if its obscure. The piece actually looks at the numbers in order to look at it from a rational stance...no one in their right mind, except maybe Israeli right winged supporters like you, can deny that the pal death toll is all by "accident"!

And you want the report?

Here it is
http://www.phrusa.org/research/fore...commentary.html

quote:

Can you tell me how it was not? Didn't they run over a hippie protestor a few feet infront of a bulldozer? Perhaps one doesn't consdier that tanks are farsighted...?

Its this very attitude that I am disgusted by, the mentality that there is an excuse to every palestinian death, regardless of how innocent they are. If Israeli missiles from a helicopter gunship can precisly target cars with miltant leaders in them, why cant a tank see up close! This is the 21st century man,... dont give me shit about farsightedness. Telescopic technology is practically fundemental in military instruments.

But im not surprised you have these cold-hearted assumptions. This is coming from a guy who seems to like the destructive and murderous purpose of israeli tanks, just look at his avatar

___________________
"This place isn't big enough for me to blow it up."
-MARCO V

quote:

Originally posted by Cyrus King HAHHAHAHAHA...thats what you do when you get stuck eh? You totally dismiss the article and findings as if its obscure. The piece actually looks at the numbers in order to look at it from a rational stance...no one in their right mind, except maybe Israeli right winged supporters like you, can deny that the pal death toll is all by "accident"! And you want the report? Here it is http://www.phrusa.org/research/fore...commentary.html

Good the correct link however is:
http://www.phrusa.org/research/fore...el_force_2.html

And that is what I am investigating now. Come on Cyrus, you should know me better then that all ready, you know I back up my statements. Just give me sometime and I will disprove to you in a rational sense the objectivisim and conclusions from the observation of the report.

Already reading it though it states:
PHR's analysis of fatal gun shot wounds in Gaza reveals that approximately 50% were to the head

And this just seems to compound the point of their stupidity. I mean what did you want? A person shot in the arm to cause 50% of fatal (mean death making) wounds?? Everyone knows, to kill, you want the head, or the torso (which I am sure accounts for the other 50%) of the fatal GUN SHOT wounds. I mean come, I'm sure the same statistics apply to Palestinians shooting Israelis - that 50% of ALL fatal GUN SHOTs to Israel's from Palestinians are to the head. It's just such a stupid point, that compounds the fact that this is a stupid report.... I mean thats like saying, 50% of people who smoke die of lung cancer, and then trying to blame that 50% statistics as if it has some direct correlation to Israel.

Also, even a Israeli right winged supporters like ME, does not can deny that the Palestinian death toll is all by "accident"! I never have, however I do believe 95-98% of it is. You seem to think its more like 20% or 50%....

quote:

If Israeli missiles from a helicopter gunship can precisly target cars with miltant leaders in them

But they can't you know this, I know this. This is why innocents get killed often times, and many terrorist survive such attacks. However, helicopters are a fairly efficetive if you look at the other military options. That does not mean they are accurate, it just means they are better then anything else.

Its like saying a Mercedes is better then a Toyota... but were not talking about formula 1.

quote:

why cant a tank see up close! This is the 21st century man,... dont give me shit about farsightedness. Telescopic technology is practically fundemental in military instruments.

Buh they are equiped with telescopic technology.... thats why they are farsighted. Whats does a telescope allow you to do? see things that are far away.... That is what tanks are built for (you should take my word for this as my avatar is a tank, that must mean I know something about that). Tanks are not built for street fighting, they are built for theatre combat, tank to tank battles. I mean imagine your car with only a little squeek of a window infront and now you have to know what is going around you 360o because some guy on a tranceaddict message board that has way to much sympathy for Palestinians, and not enough for realism wants you to know this. Well its not going to change, no matter how much you want it or how much it is unfair.

quote:

But im not surprised you have these cold-hearted assumptions.

I assure you my heart is full of warmth, if it was not, I would be dead right now... which I don't think you would mind to much


But then again such a half-ass trying to be witty comment is coming from a guy who seems to like the destructive and murderous cancer causing purpose of a cigar, just look at his avatar

quote:

Originally posted by Cyrus King This is coming from a guy who seems to like the destructive and murderous purpose of israeli tanks, just look at his avatar

Actually, I don't think that is an Israeli tank. The Merkava has a distinctly larger front chasis for the engine compartment, and as such the barrel of the main gun has minimal portrusion from the front of the tank. Additionally, the turret of the merkava is more squat and has a narrower, more shaped, profile in order to provide a more difficult target to hit and to possibly deflect shell rounds that come in at extreme angles.



Now then, if we examine instead the M1A2 Abrams tank we can see that the turret is most certainly much broader and less sloped than the Merkava. For those reasons, the main gun appears to be significantly smaller with respects to the turret despite the fact that it is a 120mm main gun, the largest size fielded by a main battle tank.



Therefore I think the tank in Yoepus's avatar is an M1A1 or M1A2 which I believe the US does not export (considering it is the most lethal tank in the world). Anyway sorry for the intrusion ... I'm somewhat of a military historian. Also when I was little, my brother was in military intelligence and brought home tech documents and identification profiles of the world's military hardware. They were intersting and I was bored so I memorized them. Shhh don't tell the gov't. Ok back to your regularly scheduled bickering.

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Retro ...

quote:

Originally posted by Yoepus Good the correct link however is: http://www.phrusa.org/research/fore...el_force_2.html And that is what I am investigating now. Come on Cyrus, you should know me better then that all ready, you know I back up my statements. Just give me sometime and I will disprove to you in a rational sense the objectivisim and conclusions from the observation of the report. Already reading it though it states: PHR's analysis of fatal gun shot wounds in Gaza reveals that approximately 50% were to the head And this just seems to compound the point of their stupidity. I mean what did you want? A person shot in the arm to cause 50% of fatal (mean death making) wounds?? Everyone knows, to kill, you want the head, or the torso (which I am sure accounts for the other 50%) of the fatal GUN SHOT wounds. I mean come, I'm sure the same statistics apply to Palestinians shooting Israelis - that 50% of ALL fatal GUN SHOTs to Israel's from Palestinians are to the head. It's just such a stupid point, that compounds the fact that this is a stupid report.... I mean thats like saying, 50% of people who smoke die of lung cancer, and then trying to blame that 50% statistics as if it has some direct correlation to Israel. Also, even a Israeli right winged supporters like ME, does not can deny that the Palestinian death toll is all by "accident"! I never have, however I do believe 95-98% of it is. You seem to think its more like 20% or 50%....

That is the point! They INTENDED to KILL if the fatally wounded are shot in the head! They aim at the head and then they die... that the best way to kill someone right?

Oh.. but the bullets 'accidently' flew into their skulls.

And you beleiving 95-98% of these deaths are accidental is the problem i have. Its basically ALL the deaths. Its so naive that i dont want to even respond. How is more than 1600 palestinian civilian death 95%-98% accidental....give me a break.

quote:

Buh they are equiped with telescopic technology.... thats why they are farsighted. Whats does a telescope allow you to do? see things that are far away.... That is what tanks are built for (you should take my word for this as my avatar is a tank, that must mean I know something about that). Tanks are not built for street fighting, they are built for theatre combat, tank to tank battles. I mean imagine your car with only a little squeek of a window infront and now you have to know what is going around you 360o because some guy on a tranceaddict message board that has way to much sympathy for Palestinians, and not enough for realism wants you to know this. Well its not going to change, no matter how much you want it or how much it is unfair.

So basically you are telling me that tanks have absolutely no near sighted vision, or instead, that they dont have that option built intotheir navigational instruments? HAHAHHA.. there has to be a way in order to see infron of you so that you know where exactly you are going. Travelling with a magnified view will make travel very inefficient.

Ive seen video of inside a tank.. and how they function... i assure you, you can see both near and far...

And with respect to that hippee.. Rachel corrie was holding a loud microphone blaring her voice out and while wearing a neon orange jacket in plain view of a bulldozer....but as a response, israel seemed to beleive that the tank "accidentally" threw dirt on her..makiing her camaflouge with the ground, where she was then crushed...even though she had been protesting for hours in that same spot...

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I assure you my heart is full of warmth, if it was not, I would be dead right now... which I don't think you would mind to much But then again such a half-ass trying to be witty comment is coming from a guy who seems to like the destructive and murderous cancer causing purpose of a cigar, just look at his avatar

My avatar is in dedication to Mr. Che Guevara....not the cigar he is holding... nice try...but lame indeed.

___________________
"This place isn't big enough for me to blow it up."
-MARCO V

quote:

Yoepus, you have just been owned.... tathi, re-explaining yourself is what you will do here becuase many will fail to see the objectivity in your points.

Blind patriots are piteous, they are incapable of autonomous thought. In 20 years time their government will be telling them when to eat, when to take a piss and when to fuck, and they will joyously reply "how much?" "how long?" and "how hard?"