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Originally posted by eFeKz or do you believe you're in control of your own destiny? acknowledging fate indicates a belief in something above yourself, a god or deity(s) if you will. i do not believe our lives have a pre-game plan put forward for us at birth but rather that we are in control of our own destiny. maybe it is a little bit of both. your thoughts.

What you perceive as reality is as deterministic or as entropic as you are. That is because the scope of the process of making a choice itself does not extend beyond oneself as a modular phenomenon.

Ironically, this means that many of both those who espouse belief in fate and those who deny it are, in a very general sense, correct as it pertains to themselves - despite the fact that the reasoning by which they have reached their conclusion is faulty in effectively every case.

It ought to be quite evident that the degree of volitional constraint upon the consciousness varies from one sentient biological organism to the next. The more neurophenomenologically pertinent question would be whether or not this variable remains constant for a single consciousness-phenomenon in relation to time (as that phenomenon experiences it), and, if the answer is no (as a cursory examination would suggest) then what phenomena govern those changes and how do they behave?

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Originally posted by Arbiter What you perceive as reality is as deterministic or as entropic as you are. That is because the scope of the process of making a choice itself does not extend beyond oneself as a modular phenomenon. Ironically, this means that many of both those who espouse belief in fate and those who deny it are, in a very general sense, correct as it pertains to themselves - despite the fact that the reasoning by which they have reached their conclusion is faulty in effectively every case. It ought to be quite evident that the degree of volitional constraint upon the consciousness varies from one sentient biological organism to the next. The more neurophenomenologically pertinent question would be whether or not this variable remains constant for a single consciousness-phenomenon in relation to time (as that phenomenon experiences it), and, if the answer is no (as a cursory examination would suggest) then what phenomena govern those changes and how do they behave?

So if I may redact your argument to more simplistic terms I gather that you ultimately believe that our decisions are deterministic at a certain fundametal level? Those who believe in fate have a greater "predisposition" to make the choices that coincide with their pre-conceptions of the path that fate has "laid" out for them, and thus they accomplish the self-fulfilling prophecy. On the converse, those who refuse to believe in fate are fundamentally volatile and thus achieve their own self-fulfilling prophecy of making volatile decisions that coincide with their own "predispositions" as well. Thus the determinists are fundementally "deterministic as they are" while the entropics are fundamentally "entropic as they are"?

My interpretation of your post was that your third paragraph was incongruent with your first two. In your first two paragraphs you lay the groundwork for what may ultimately be considered as deterministic behaviour as every choice can ultimately be reduced to "modular phenomenan" ... thus the determinists and entropics are ultimately indistinguishable. In your third paragraph, you seem to indicate that there is some level of variability that is contradictive to the entire deterministic argument altogether. Are you advocating that determinism is ultimately your proposed end state whilst the complexity and mechanics of the variability have yet to be worked out or understood?

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Retro ...

Last edited by occrider on Nov-08-2006 at 07:43

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Originally posted by all-nite-freak vermont transit is costing me alot of $$$ lately and i needed the money

Fate is bullshit.

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Originally posted by Marc Summers That's what makes the world a colorful place. I don't care if there are 'idiots' in here, or in the real world. I have plenty of friends and coworkers that stimulate my mind so much, that I am satisfied at the end of the day. I hang out with some 'idiots' who have been my friends for almost my whole life. When I was 6, I didn't care how smart they were, and I sure as hell don't now because we all respect each other.

haha reminds me of a good farside comic where "god" is making the world. he's like dumping a bunch of stuff onto this globe or something and you see jars that are labeled, "men" "women" "homeless" or something like that. and then you see him dumping in the jar called "jerks" and he's saying, "and just to make it interesting"



anyway, i am in charge of my own destiny. that's pretty much what it boils down to in my world. there might be situations that come at me along the way that are out of my control, but how i react to those situations and come out in the end is still completely within my conrol.

i can see why people like to believe in fate and destiny though. it's fun. dont get me wrong, i have a little hopeless romantic side to me, but i don't really like the idea of thinking that my life and things that happen to me aren't within my control. that's just ridiculous actually.

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My soliloquy may be hard for some to swallow, but so is cod liver oil.

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Originally posted by notelfreak man i can't believe i tried to come off as responsible in that other thread, i am so full of shit just don't tell anyone

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Originally posted by occrider So if I may redact your argument to more simplistic terms I gather that you ultimately believe that our decisions are deterministic at a certain fundametal level? Those who believe in fate have a greater "predisposition" to make the choices that coincide with their pre-conceptions of the path that fate has "laid" out for them, and thus they accomplish the self-fulfilling prophecy. On the converse, those who refuse to believe in fate are fundamentally volatile and thus achieve their own self-fulfilling prophecy of making volatile decisions that coincide with their own "predispositions" as well. Thus the determinists are fundementally "deterministic as they are" while the entropics are fundamentally "entropic as they are"? My interpretation of your post was that your third paragraph was incongruent with your first two. In your first two paragraphs you lay the groundwork for what may ultimately be considered as deterministic behaviour as every choice can ultimately be reduced to "modular phenomenan" ... thus the determinists and entropics are ultimately indistinguishable. In your third paragraph, you seem to indicate that there is some level of variability that is contradictive to the entire deterministic argument altogether. Are you advocating that determinism is ultimately your proposed end state whilst the complexity and mechanics of the variability have yet to be worked out or understood?

No, I seem to have left the wrong impression. The problem with this issue is that consciousness itself is a composite (or modular) phenomenon which is the result of the interaction of lower-level phenomena, of which many are themselves composite phenomena... and so forth. Not only that, but consciousness cannot be examined in a vacuum, so we must consider the influence which external phenomena might have upon its behavior.

The various phenomena which ultimately comprise the consciousness are not identical in structure or behavior between all consciousnesses. Of these constituent phenomena, some are deterministic and some are not. Since the consciousness-phenomenon is partially comprised of non-deterministic phenomena, it would be wrong to say that it is determinsitic in an absolute sense.

Among those who claim to believe in fate, I think it is a very small minority that actually believe in this sort of absolute determinism anyway. What most of them actually believe in is the existence of certain "inevitabilities" within their reality.

Even when a function is contains non-deterministic elements, it may produce markedly biased output as a result of the deterministic elements within it. It is the same for consciousness-phenomena. Although the choices that are made are not deterministic, they may be markedly biased in some cases - and in such a situation, certain outcomes may become inevitable, or at least exceedingly probable.

Such outcomes, it could be argued, are "fated" - to those who will experience them. But this does not mean that the phenomenon itself is deterministic.

Now, the perception that people may have of their condition could be quite different. But those who believe in "fate" are correct and those who believe they are in control of their own actions are correct. The two conditions aren't mutually exclusive, but to those who believe they are, their perception of fate or the lack thereof partially governs the course that their consciousnesses as phenoemna will take through the paths available to them in a manner that is as determinstic or non-deterministic as they believe it will be.

you guys sound like a couple of self absorbed assholes. who the fuck talks like that

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"The only monster here is the gambling monster that has enslaved your mother! I call him Gamblor, and it's time to snatch your mother from his neon claws!" - homer