quote:

Originally posted by LatinLover We torture people? Please provide me evidence of ex detainees in Guantamo that have suffered physical torture? Better yet, have any of these detainees come on to claim such actions? I am proud that the US is one of the few nations that tries to follow the geneva conventions laws at the best of their ability. I am proud that our military does not have a reputation of torturing people. Yes, when some soldiers misbehave we make sure justice is done. So please stop spitting on this far left crap.

Well part of the problem is that their stories are being suppressed:
http://hrw.org/english/docs/2007/03/15/usdom15496.htm

But here are some that have gotten out:
http://www.commondreams.org/headlines03/0819-06.htm

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/3706050.stm

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/4262095.stm

http://www.guardian.co.uk/guantanam...1981955,00.html

http://prisonplanet.tv/articles/nov...penlyadmits.htm

http://www.truthout.org/docs_05/010205A.shtml

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/li...d=1766&ito=1490

http://www.abc.net.au/am/content/2003/s962052.htm

http://www.prisonplanet.com/article...lsoftorture.htm

http://web.amnesty.org/library/index/engAMR510512007

http://www.antiwar.com/eland/?articleid=10663

http://www.commondreams.org/headlines05/0921-03.htm

http://hrw.org/english/docs/2007/07/26/usint16514.htm

http://www.cooperativeresearch.org/...=hr_indications

http://www.slate.com/id/2156397/fr/rss/


Even former Secretary Powell acknowledges it goes on:
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/4855930/

The role of Alberto Gonzales:
http://www.chelseagreen.com/about/p.../2005/january20

http://www.threemonkeysonline.com/t..._david_rose.htm

http://humanrights.ucdavis.edu/proj...e-at-guantanamo

___________________

quote:

Originally posted by Lebezniatnikov Well part of the problem is that their stories are being suppressed: http://hrw.org/english/docs/2007/03/15/usdom15496.htm But here are some that have gotten out: http://www.commondreams.org/headlines03/0819-06.htm http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/3706050.stm http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/4262095.stm http://www.guardian.co.uk/guantanam...1981955,00.html http://prisonplanet.tv/articles/nov...penlyadmits.htm http://www.truthout.org/docs_05/010205A.shtml http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/li...d=1766&ito=1490 http://www.abc.net.au/am/content/2003/s962052.htm http://www.prisonplanet.com/article...lsoftorture.htm http://web.amnesty.org/library/index/engAMR510512007 http://www.antiwar.com/eland/?articleid=10663 http://www.commondreams.org/headlines05/0921-03.htm http://hrw.org/english/docs/2007/07/26/usint16514.htm http://www.cooperativeresearch.org/...=hr_indications http://www.slate.com/id/2156397/fr/rss/ Even former Secretary Powell acknowledges it goes on: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/4855930/ The role of Alberto Gonzales: http://www.chelseagreen.com/about/p.../2005/january20 http://www.threemonkeysonline.com/t..._david_rose.htm http://humanrights.ucdavis.edu/proj...e-at-guantanamo

These " alleged claims" have not been proven Nice try though

___________________

quote:

Originally posted by Krypton College tuition should be free, so should healthcare.

quote:

Originally posted by LatinLover These " alleged claims" have not been proven Nice try though

...



There are so many directions I can go with this one... I don't even know where to start.

1. You asked for allegations of mistreatment by prisoners, claiming that none had stepped forward. I provided many documented cases.

2. Now you're asking for PROOF? What kind of proof would you like? Perhaps I can fly down to Guantanamo for you and observe it myself? Or would that still be borderline hearsay for you?

3. While we're on the topic of denying allegations... why is it ok to blindly deny these allegations in the face of overwhelming evidence and simultaneously accept allegations about an Iranian nuclear weapons program whose existence is dubious at best?

4. You blindly deny anything that is incompatible with your vision of American perfection, when it is clear and undeniable (at least one would think) that America has practiced and continues to enact some policies that are contrary to what we stand for. And when anyone points out this disconnect and says that we should fix it, you label them un-American for merely recognizing problems that should be addressed. If anyone is un-American, it is you people who think America is perfect as it is, because I have news for you, we are still far from perfection, and your refusal to recognize that only solidifies our inability to live up to our own basic principles upon which this country was founded. America does not need folks like you blindly trying to protect the status quo. We need people actively seeking to make this country better, so that we can live up to our commitments, to ourselves and to the rest of the world at large, so that one day we might actually be that shining beacon of freedom, justice, and equality that we always profess ourselves to be.

___________________

quote:

Originally posted by LatinLover I mean who is talking about invading Iran? We shouldn disregard it but it should be the last option in the play book. Misteropus, I am sadden of your anti american views. We torture people? Please provide me evidence of ex detainees in Guantamo that have suffered physical torture? Better yet, have any of these detainees come on to claim such actions? I am proud that the US is one of the few nations that tries to follow the geneva conventions laws at the best of their ability. I am proud that our military does not have a reputation of torturing people. Yes, when some soldiers misbehave we make sure justice is done. So please stop spitting on this far left crap.

Dude you are kidding right?please get your head out of your ass.Your government doesnt give a fuck about the Geneva conventions.Infact according to alot of members of this admin torturing is completly legal when it comes to protecting America.

___________________
Mystic Mind - DJ Mixes
http://soundcloud.com/mystic-mind

Facebook page
https://www.facebook.com/DJMysticMind

quote:

Originally posted by LatinLover I mean who is talking about invading Iran? We shouldn disregard it but it should be the last option in the play book.

I am merely carrying out your "strategic bombing" campaign out to it's logical end. Iran will more than likely retaliate in force toward Israel and/or Iraq where our soldiers reside, which will give us little option but to strike back. And as I have pointed out earlier, there are those wingnut analysts who want us to invade Iran and pray for such an invasion (i.e. Podheretz), who happen to have our President's ear.

So yes, you are referring to invading Iran because the actions you advocate will ineviteably lead to that, and the analysts your pro-war views line us nicely with and whom Bush listens to advocate and want it to happen as well.

quote:

Misteropus, I am sadden of your anti american views.

Not nearly as sad as I am with your incessant narrow-minded silliness. But I find it amusing to this coming from someone who advocates such hard-line stances in the Middle East and supports this Administration so fervently but refuses to stand behind that fervent support by enlisting and fighting for that said cause. Yellow really does look nice on supporters like you.

quote:

We torture people? Please provide me evidence of ex detainees in Guantamo that have suffered physical torture? Better yet, have any of these detainees come on to claim such actions? I am proud that the US is one of the few nations that tries to follow the geneva conventions laws at the best of their ability. I am proud that our military does not have a reputation of torturing people. Yes, when some soldiers misbehave we make sure justice is done. So please stop spitting on this far left crap.

*sigh*

Before I post any links, you have to show me that you're willing to turn over a new leaf. You have to demonstrate that you are willing to debate with integrity by reading, comprehending, and directly refuting any counterpoints made to your own baseless assertions. Forget me or anyone asking you to support your initial baseless assertions. We're all aware that you're horribly incapable of that. But if you're not willing to show some maturity and have an honest debate by reading and comprehending any counterpoints made to your assertions, I have absolutely no use for you.

I'm busy as shit with school, research, and training right now. I've wasted enough time on your ass in the past trying to get you to engage in a debate with honesty and integrity, only for you to handwave and ignore and act as if you're too fucking high and mighty to do so (and only demonstrated your lack of maturity and integrity as a consequence). It got you banned for good reason, and I'd venture to say it will probably happen soon again. But if you're willing to change your ways and show integrity by comprehending and directly responding to counterpoints made to your assertions, I'll play along and show you the evidence.

I have my sincere doubts, as you've just ignored Lebezniatnikov's post with links completely. But I'm willing to give you the benefit of the doubt one more time. Promise me you'll debate with integrity, and we'll continue.

quote:

I am sure you are anti bush.

Who the hell isn't nowadays?

quote:

But I ask you and propose to you to look at these issues for whats best for America.

That's exactly what me and the majority of Americans who share my views are doing. Unfortunately for fringe individuals like yourself you have this glass prism point of view and believe your view is what all share and is best for everyone.

You realize your view is the extreme minority, right?

quote:

And not this far left ideology that you posses.

My "far left" ideology is shared by the majority of Americans. Have a glance at www.pollingreport.com on a given myriad of issues and whatever majority you see for American views you will find my own resting nicely within that majority.

Yours, OTOH, are consistently in the minority. Yet you call my ideology the "far left". Funny how the majority outside of your viewpoints are "far left". Didn't realize so many "far left" majority Americans there were.

quote:

I must tell you Misteropus you are fatally flawed!

Yes, I've heard your unsupported rhetoric countless times in the past, and as I've said previously, I'm fucking tired as shit hearing your baseless claims with no supporting evidence to back yourself up. Enough already. Debate with integrity or in all likelihood a mod will interevene and take care of matters for you.

___________________
Whence September dusk grows crisper still,
with leaves all crimson conquered,
I yearn to shout,
and dance about,
and stick pickles in my honker...

WOW

I mean someone posts some links of far left media, where it shows no evidence at all these tortures have occurred. Sorry but the one that posted those links, they have little credibility. Prison planet? Thank god i grew out of that shit when I was 10 years old.

Back to my point, those links are from far left media. They have proven to denigrate this Admin and only promote negative stuff. Till this day there isnt any credible source that can prove physical torture has occurred.

If you think that isolating someone, not feed'em for a period a long of time is harsh than I would be sure that many detainees in Cuba, Iran, North Korea would consider Guantamo a paradise compare to what those thugs in their country do to them

To the far left, stop crying over BS and get serious now, come on!

___________________

quote:

Originally posted by Krypton College tuition should be free, so should healthcare.

quote:

Originally posted by LatinLover WOW I mean someone posts some links of far left media, where it shows no evidence at all these tortures have occurred. Sorry but the one that posted those links, they have little credibility. Prison planet? Thank god i grew out of that shit when I was 10 years old. Back to my point, those links are from far left media. They have proven to denigrate this Admin and only promote negative stuff. Till this day there isnt any credible source that can prove physical torture has occurred. If you think that isolating someone, not feed'em for a period a long of time is harsh than I would be sure that many detainees in Cuba, Iran, North Korea would consider Guantamo a paradise compare to what those thugs in their country do to them To the far left, stop crying over BS and get serious now, come on!

What constitutes "credible source" to you? You can not merely handwave away all sources as "far left" media simply because they do not agree with you. So what constitutes a credible source in your eyes?

___________________
Whence September dusk grows crisper still,
with leaves all crimson conquered,
I yearn to shout,
and dance about,
and stick pickles in my honker...

The source which leans on the far right. duh...

___________________

Download and review ! Omega_M - In the Mix (Beta Version)

Originally posted by twilightki : It feels like something you'd listen to at 4 in the morning, or listen to in your car while you're going in a tunnel.

quote:

Originally posted by MisterOpus1 What constitutes "credible source" to you? You can not merely handwave away all sources as "far left" media simply because they do not agree with you. So what constitutes a credible source in your eyes?

Anything and everything Bush or Cheney have said. Everything else is futile. People like this equate patriotism to blind acceptance of policy, even when policy mistakes are made evidently clear...

___________________

Last edited by Krypton on Sep-28-2007 at 00:45

Latin,

I will post this one last time. I will give you one last chance. Ad hominem fallacies will not do here. Attacking the source without addressing the substance as you just did with Lebezniatnikov will not fly with me, nor will it fly with anyone else anymore. So here is my post again. A simple "yes" or "no" will do:

quote:

You have to demonstrate that you are willing to debate with integrity by reading, comprehending, and directly refuting any counterpoints made to your own baseless assertions. Forget me or anyone asking you to support your initial baseless assertions. We're all aware that you're horribly incapable of that. But if you're not willing to show some maturity and have an honest debate by reading and comprehending any counterpoints made to your assertions, I have absolutely no use for you. I'm busy as shit with school, research, and training right now. I've wasted enough time on your ass in the past trying to get you to engage in a debate with honesty and integrity, only for you to handwave and ignore and act as if you're too fucking high and mighty to do so (and only demonstrated your lack of maturity and integrity as a consequence). It got you banned for good reason, and I'd venture to say it will probably happen soon again. But if you're willing to change your ways and show integrity by comprehending and directly responding to counterpoints made to your assertions, I'll play along and show you the evidence. I have my sincere doubts, as you've just ignored Lebezniatnikov's post with links completely. But I'm willing to give you the benefit of the doubt one more time. Promise me you'll debate with integrity, and we'll continue.

No more bullshit from you. Debate with the integrity by addressing points made directly to you rather than hand waving them away or attacking their source without addressing the substance or kindly go back to the COR.

And while you're at it, here's an appetizer for you: why would an FBI agent lie about what he saw at Gitmo?:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dy...-2004Dec20.html

___________________
Whence September dusk grows crisper still,
with leaves all crimson conquered,
I yearn to shout,
and dance about,
and stick pickles in my honker...

quote:

Originally posted by LatinLover WOW I mean someone posts some links of far left media, where it shows no evidence at all these tortures have occurred. Sorry but the one that posted those links, they have little credibility. Prison planet? Thank god i grew out of that shit when I was 10 years old. Back to my point, those links are from far left media. They have proven to denigrate this Admin and only promote negative stuff. Till this day there isnt any credible source that can prove physical torture has occurred. If you think that isolating someone, not feed'em for a period a long of time is harsh than I would be sure that many detainees in Cuba, Iran, North Korea would consider Guantamo a paradise compare to what those thugs in their country do to them To the far left, stop crying over BS and get serious now, come on!

Here is a VERY SHORT list of results I found from sources I would consider credible, and centrist, that accuse the US of torture.

Financial Times

http://search.ft.com/ftArticle?quer...0520000392&ct=0

http://search.ft.com/ftArticle?quer...0706010009&ct=0

http://search.ft.com/ftArticle?quer...0511000712&ct=0

http://search.ft.com/ftArticle?quer...0619001829&ct=0

http://search.ft.com/ftArticle?quer...1116009041&ct=0

http://search.ft.com/ftArticle?quer...0616008429&ct=0

http://search.ft.com/ftArticle?quer...0521006491&ct=0

http://search.ft.com/ftArticle?quer...0512006281&ct=0

Economist articles (no links as it's subscription only):

Guantánamo -- Justice shackled
Mar 29th 2007
From The Economist print edition

Trials and tribulations
Aug 26th 2004
From The Economist print edition

Torture
Ends, means and barbarity
Jan 9th 2003
From The Economist print edition

Foreign Affairs

http://www.foreignaffairs.org/20070...rikes-back.html

http://www.foreignaffairs.org/20070...f-emotions.html

http://www.foreignaffairs.org/20070...fghanistan.html

http://www.foreignaffairs.org/20051...of-vietnam.html

http://www.foreignaffairs.org/20050...ding-china.html


...

And for fun, fox news does torture:

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,281228,00.html

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,295886,00.html

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,269119,00.html

http://www.foxnews.com/wires/2007Au...ntanamo,00.html