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Originally posted by jennypie My next door neighbour was a ward of the government right up until last summer when she turned 18. She is a smart, hard working girl, and will be starting school in the fall for nursing. She works two jobs to pay her rent, and has saved all of her money to pay for school. She's owned 2 cars, both of which she paid cash for. Doesn't sound like she grew up to abuse the system to me.

18 & financially independant? Send her my way!

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Originally posted by Enigmatik If you were adopted, would you want to know?

Yes

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If you knew, would you want to meet your birth parents?

My thought is maybe, just to say thank you.

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If you adopted a child, how would you feel about the birth mother trying to contact you?

I think I would understand.

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If you gave up a child, would you want to contact him or her when they reached adulthood?

I think out of love to the child I would be strong enough not to contact him or her but if he/she chose to contact me, I would welcome the opportunity to meet them.

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Any other thoughts on adoption?

If you are unable to give your unborn baby the kind of life that all children deserve, the greatest gift of love is to give that child to a couple who can.

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Originally posted by Echo of Silence If you are unable to give your unborn baby the kind of life that all children deserve, the greatest gift of love is to give that child to a couple who can.

no no no. read the thread. theresa thinks its a much better idea if they get a dose of mr hoover.

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Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN no no no. read the thread. theresa thinks its a much better idea if they get a dose of mr hoover.

I read it.

I believe in a woman's right to choose but that includes a woman's right to choose life.

Let's say I am pregnant. Suddenly, I'm stricken with a sense of God knows what, I can't imagine that this baby is just a mass of goo, I already think of the baby (which of course isn't really a person yet) as a little person. So I can't abort. Ack, a moment of weakness. Or maybe I was raised Catholic. Whatever. We go full term.

If I give birth to a baby is the best thing that I can do for my baby to keep it and raise it? Not always. That may actually be the worst thing that I can do but the easiest. And it could be the most selfish.

It seems to me that, in United States, most of the children who are in the "system" (by in the "system" we mean children who are not adopted and thus, wards of the state, I think?) are childen whose fathers are nothing more than sperm donors and whose mothers thought they were capable of raising their babies and turned out to be incapable because of poverty, drug/alcohol addiction, lack of resources, lack of education, lack of maturity, what have you.

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Originally posted by Echo of Silence I am pregnant.

I didn't do it or did I. Quick, call Andrey too!

Theresa have you ever seen the movie Juno? If not you should rent it hun.

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Originally posted by Lebezniatnikov I've only read the last two pages, but I'm with you on this one based on what I've seen.

The problem is that you don't get to make arguments like the one you're simplifying here by saying:

01. There are loads of kids stuck "in the system."

/:. Adoption is a bad practice that we should rethink.

It's very much like saying:

01. If you brush your teeth, you won't get cavities.

/:. The reason you get a cavity is because you haven't brushed your teeth.

In both cases you're only giving someone half the facts and offering a conclusion based on evidence that is suspect.

An important (and large) segment of kids who are "in the system" are being forgotten here, namely those who don't go "into the system" at birth.

Initially, all Theresa had to say was:

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Originally posted by Theresa I don't think highly of people who put their children up for adoption... to put it lightly.

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Originally posted by Theresa Personally, I don't think any mother should give birth if they have no intention of keeping the child. I know that sounds horrible, and as much as I luv you Ange, that doesn't change my opinion. I don't know much about how you were adopted, or at what age, but for the majority of children, if they are not adopted at a young age, many are left in the system. If this practice were discontinued, there would be a lot less homeless and unloved children, and a lot less resources spent on taking care of them. Not to mention that a lot of them do not become upstanding citizens and then continue to use the system as adults. You were lucky, but not all children that are put up for adoption get to be so lucky. To me, giving your child up for adoption is ultimately a selfish thing. Anyone can try and provide a good life to their child.... those people couldn't be bothered. It isn't that hard to get a job, and there are plenty of "assistance" programs. It's a matter of not wanting to own up to their mistakes and change their lives to accommodate for it. Instead, they abandon their child for someone else to take care of. My feeling is that if you make a mess, you better clean it up. Why should anyone else do that for you? And in the situation of adoption, why should a child be potentially put into a life of suffering? *Yes, I know not all of them suffer*. Anyway, I can't find numbers right now, but the amount of children that go unadopted every year is sickening, and I think it needs to stop.

All of this amounts to nothing more than: "People who give children up for adoption are bad people who I have no respect for. Just look at all the kids who don't get adopted, they grow up to be complete shit (not to mention the ones who do)! Clearly adoption doesn't work!"

Which couldn't be further from the truth (unless someone here can provide me with solid evidence that the majority of children given up for adoption at birth wind up being raised to adulthood by the government).

So while maybe a generous reading of Theresa could leave you with the impression of "Adoption doesn't always work" - that's really not at all what she was saying. Not even close.

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Originally posted by RJT All of this amounts to nothing more than: "People who give children up for adoption are bad people who I have no respect for. Just look at all the kids who don't get adopted, they grow up to be complete shit (not to mention the ones who do)! Clearly adoption doesn't work!" Which couldn't be further from the truth (unless someone here can provide me with solid evidence that the majority of children given up for adoption at birth wind up being raised to adulthood by the government). So while maybe a generous reading of Theresa could leave you with the impression of "Adoption doesn't always work" - that's really not at all what she was saying. Not even close.

That's definitely not how I interpreted her argument. I see it as follows:

1. Raising a child without the means to do so or the proper care is a bad idea.
2. Adoption, often propped up as a solution to the problem, does not always work out very well either. In fact, many times it can create emotional damage, etc.
3. Abortion can eliminate the problems raised by 1. and 2.

Depending on your view of abortion and the beginning of life, a good argument for option number 3 can be given. I haven't seen her call parents that give their child up for adoption bad people. She simply defended abortion as an act chosen out of love (in some cases).

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Originally posted by Lebezniatnikov 1. Raising a child without the means to do so or the proper care is a bad idea.

You have no idea how many people do just that here. Most of them are teenage mums, who were born themselves to teenage mums, or dads who left early, little self respect, get pregnant, get given a house, money & lots of incentives, so it's encouraging them to breed like flies with no respect for anything. For example, my mums best friends daughter, 21, 2 kids by 2 dads, twice divorced, already engaged to a third person, more handouts than a big issue seller, wasting money that would be better spent on coathangers.

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Originally posted by Lebezniatnikov That's definitely not how I interpreted her argument. I see it as follows: 1. Raising a child without the means to do so or the proper care is a bad idea. 2. Adoption, often propped up as a solution to the problem, does not always work out very well either. In fact, many times it can create emotional damage, etc. 3. Abortion can eliminate the problems raised by 1. and 2. Depending on your view of abortion and the beginning of life, a good argument for option number 3 can be given. I haven't seen her call parents that give their child up for adoption bad people. She simply defended abortion as an act chosen out of love (in some cases).

Yeah I definitely see that in her argument as well. I think it just got misconstrued when she got defensive is all.

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Originally posted by Lebezniatnikov That's definitely not how I interpreted her argument. I see it as follows: 1. Raising a child without the means to do so or the proper care is a bad idea. 2. Adoption, often propped up as a solution to the problem, does not always work out very well either. In fact, many times it can create emotional damage, etc. 3. Abortion can eliminate the problems raised by 1. and 2. Depending on your view of abortion and the beginning of life, a good argument for option number 3 can be given. I haven't seen her call parents that give their child up for adoption bad people. She simply defended abortion as an act chosen out of love (in some cases).

Did you read the posts I quoted?



I certainly thinking calling giving a child up for adoption "the ultimate selfish act" isn't all that far from calling someone a bad person.

To be honest, rereading the whole thread I'm still flabbergasted as to how you've wound up reading what she's written that way, but fair play I guess.

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