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Originally posted by starsearcher Well Agnostic really means that God could or exist but there's no real proof for his existance nor there is a proof for him not existing...so basically I'm one of those that say "maybe...but maybe not". So far I'm leaning more towards the maybe not...and it's not neccessarily because I feel invincible. Sometimes the insanity of it all bothers me though...and i don't mean people who believe in god but those who say that anything and everything that happends to them is god's will (the ones that push to the rediculous extreme, beyond reason). Back in the old days, before science everything was attributed to god...the good things, and bad things, and the ugly things...today many people seem to still live by that notion. For example last night I was watching the show The Contender and the guy was praying to god the whole time before the fight saying that god will decide whether he wins or loses and he feels that god will be with him. The guy got knocked out, and all he had to say is that it was god's plan for him not to win. Like seriously, shit like that bothers me. No disrespect to anyone but COME ON! *sigh* anyway...there ya go!

Yes...I do not agree with a zealot in any capacity...whether it is for religion or against it...Many people that 'fight' against the structure of organized religion or faith show the same bigotry...Call a spade a spade...what is the different between disrespecting someone because they believe in a supreme being that they call 'Jesus' and disrespecting someone because they don't?

Starsearcher, not saying you are a member of the above group at all, just making a point to some other 'atheists' that have posted here.

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Originally posted by Spankmeister [quote] First of all, I highly doubt that every professed 'athiest' is truly a athiest....

why do u not think that possibly I or others here may not actually be atheists. im curious to know. are u saying some ppl say it to be cool or its the "hip" thing to do.. or are u saying some ppl think they dont believe but in fact they do?

there is no doubt in my mind that god does not exist, nor any other high power (unless this "high power" is a species of aliens that just happens to be so powerful that they could appear "godlike" in the eys of us) i certainly do not subscribe to the idea that a being somehow created the universe or the world or anything.

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Secondly, an agnostic is someone that believes in a higher power, but doesn't subscribe to any organized religion...not one that hasn't thought about it..

No, thats not right. An agnostic is a person who feels that the existence of god can neither be proved nor disproved, on the basis of current evidence.

___________________
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Originally posted by Spankmeister Yes...I do not agree with a zealot in any capacity...whether it is for religion or against it...Many people that 'fight' against the structure of organized religion or faith show the same bigotry...Call a spade a spade...what is the different between disrespecting someone because they believe in a supreme being that they call 'Jesus' and disrespecting someone because they don't? Starsearcher, not saying you are a member of the above group at all, just making a point to some other 'atheists' that have posted here.

No worries didn't think you were...I'm definitely not an atheist because the place I grew up in - Israel - well there's definitely something spiritual about it. May it be god or something else I don't know, I still stick to my "maybe, maybe not" theory.

I just don't like it when people go to extremes in any religion, or even beyond it. Like that guy from that show The Contender - he could have said, "I wasn't good enough", "I didn't train hard enough", "I wasn't ready", "He was just better" and etc...no...all he said was "it wasn't god's plan." It's always easy to take the failure from you and blame it on someone else which is why I believe that if you want something badly enough, and you work hard enough to get it, no exuses, no slacking off...anything can be achieved. And when life gives your lemons...you make lemonade...you live through it, and you become stronger...

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Originally posted by Jem_hadar why do u not think that possibly I or others here may not actually be atheists. im curious to know. are u saying some ppl say it to be cool or its the "hip" thing to do.. or are u saying some ppl think they dont believe but in fact they do? there is no doubt in my mind that god does not exist, nor any other high power (unless this "high power" is a species of aliens that just happens to be so powerful that they could appear "godlike" in the eys of us) i certainly do not subscribe to the idea that a being somehow created the universe or the world or anything. No, thats not right. An agnostic is a person who feels that the existence of god can neither be proved nor disproved, on the basis of current evidence.

Don't take offense my man....

I don't want to call anybody out specifically, but you cannot be a athiest AND believe in Fate.....

Atheism by definition is "That philosophy regards the world as it actually is, views it in the light of the data provided by progressive science and social experience. Atheistic materialism is the logical outcome of scientific knowledge gained over the centuries." So every action, every single thing that happens in life should be able to be explained by a scientific theory a reaction to stimulus.

Not saying that someone cannot believe this way, but other posts by people claiming to be 'atheists' have supported a higher plane of conciousness. Atheism does not at all support this. Atheism is a belief that we are just animals, yes, animals with some intellect, but animals nonetheless. Everything is related to instinct (neural pathways in our brains slowly formed over centuries) or reaction to stimulus.

Not saying that is wrong either. But if someone is going to claim to be a orange, then friggin be a orange, seeds and all....

Now I am not trying to convince anybody of anything...I believe in tolorance of anybody's beliefs...just pointing out a couple of glaring inconsistencies(sp?) that I saw...

Let the debate rage on!

___________________
The Spankmeister Cometh.....

When the student is ready, the teacher will appear.

Alright, let me put on my scientist cap for a second and give you the science behind "love". Ahem....

"Attraction" (aka the beginning of love) starts when your phermones interact with someone else's. Chemically, when you're a compatible match with someone, you just feel it - this tingle, heightened senses, and your pulse speeds up. This is due to this chemical reaction from your body to theirs. As for the butterflies, when you are attracted to someone, your body releases serotonin and another chemical which gives a feeling of elation as well as a "hungry" feeling in your stomach (hence, the butterflies). This explains why one person and not the other as far as attraction goes....love, however, why you love one person yet not another....perhaps because this attraction dosen't stick or isn't as deeply felt. *shrug* In my experience, the "attraction" phase when I first meet someone I've dated seriously is like a tidal wave - you feel all warm and gooey inside and it dosen't go away when you're with them - the "schoolgirl" syndrome. The butterflies never seem to stop and a mere touch can send me into orbit. That's the good stuff. As opposed to those I've just dated a few times which is more like a stiff breeze on the beach and a sense of wicked fun.

And Part two - Why I (a scientist) am Agnostic

Reason One:
I firmly believe there is something out there. If you doubt this, do me favor and try this experiment. Go out to the woods - somewhere remote where human beings do not dwell often. Find a nice, open valley or a good scenic spot and hunker down. Listen and look around you. Think of all the miracles that had to occur to get a single celled organism to branch out and become the uncountable multitudes of life you see teeming around you. One little cell (created by chance from primordial gases and atoms) and we have all this because of it. Science still cannot explain what sparked that change and, until they can, I believe something greater exists. Nature holds such a power within it - there is a presence there that creeps up on me when I'm in the deep woods or ocean that dosen't occur when I venture forth into a church. And if you've ever been on an Indian burial mound at night (I have) or to some of the more ancient graveyards (double me), you can feel it too.

Reason Two:
Fate exists. Too many times in my life has there been something more out there that just WHAM! and changes my life entirely. It might not be the best thing at first but it can lead to it. Coincidence I thought at first but nope, there is such a thing as fate. THe more you fight against it, the worse things can turn out - better to just nudge a little and let life take you where it will.

It also comes down to I guess what you feel is the point of life on this earth. Are we here to transcend to a higher plane of existence or are we just "here"? Is there a point to being good or bad if there's no hell? Most righteous religion followers I know are always trying to better both themselves and those around them - which isn't a bad thing.

I believe that we're here to learn and be the best we can be but, at the same time, I don't intend to spend my life in a cubicle. I don't care if I'm not the wealthiest person in the world as long as I know my life has been full and rich with good people, places, and times. Let people learn from you and you from them and making people smile is the thing I love to do best. Laughter is pure light in my mind.

___________________
Have Love Will Travel

Last edited by kabelicious on Apr-05-2005 at 21:08

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Originally posted by Spankmeister Don't take offense my man.... I don't want to call anybody out specifically, but you cannot be a athiest AND believe in Fate..... Atheism by definition is "That philosophy regards the world as it actually is, views it in the light of the data provided by progressive science and social experience. Atheistic materialism is the logical outcome of scientific knowledge gained over the centuries." So every action, every single thing that happens in life should be able to be explained by a scientific theory a reaction to stimulus. Not saying that someone cannot believe this way, but other posts by people claiming to be 'atheists' have supported a higher plane of conciousness. Atheism does not at all support this. Atheism is a belief that we are just animals, yes, animals with some intellect, but animals nonetheless. Everything is related to instinct (neural pathways in our brains slowly formed over centuries) or reaction to stimulus. Not saying that is wrong either. But if someone is going to claim to be a orange, then friggin be a orange, seeds and all.... Now I am not trying to convince anybody of anything...I believe in tolorance of anybody's beliefs...just pointing out a couple of glaring inconsistencies(sp?) that I saw... Let the debate rage on!

Sorry bro, didnt mean to make it seem like i was getting offended by you... i just wasnt sure how u intended that statement and was interested to know whut u meant

I totally agree that as an atheist you shouldnt be believe in fate, since fate refers to some kind of pre-ordained destiny or set of events or something like that (i think)

i believe everything happens as a result of everything else. when said event happens, it will influence something else... and thats why whut happens happens. we were not fated or destined to become this or to do that
eg. u hit a nail but bobby bumps into u and knocks u, hence u miss the nail and hit ur thumb. bobby wasnt destined to hit u (u trip or something by accident, just a coincidence) and u werent destined to hit ur thumb (yes its a very mediocre example but i believe the same applies on a larger and grander scale of life as well)

stuff just falls in line

i dunno where i stand on a high plane of consciousness... depends on whut a person means by it... i beelive there is *probably* alot we can learn to do w/ our minds (dont we only use like a small percentage of it?)

i mean, i do not believe at this point in higher forms of consciousness, but i dont necessarily think the idea is ludacris... id be open to believing that if it could be shown... same w/ the idea of a non-corporeal existence... i dont believe in that as it stands, but if the facts were there, i believe i could be convinced of its authenticity

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Originally posted by Jem_hadar i believe everything happens as a result of everything else. when said event happens, it will influence something else... and thats why whut happens happens. we were not fated or destined to become this or to do that

Causality. For every action there is an equal and opposite reaction.

Chaos theory is more fun though.

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Universal Religion

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Originally posted by SurrJRS Causality. For every action there is an equal and opposite reaction. Chaos theory is more fun though.

Hehehe, ye, that wasnt whut i meant, but yea...

just that, if i do this, this could happen and that'll affect other things... and one where do the line bc of all that *something* will happen.

all i meant was that when that specific *something* happens, it was bc of a just a whole bunch of events which eventually caused it... not bc of faith or bc it was destined to occur (IMO)

whuts the chaos theroy again? That Baki (trancechaos) controls everything in the known 'verse ?

~Jem~

___________________
TECHNO IS THE BEST NOISE ON EARTH.
Save Techno - Stop Minimal / Tech-House

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Originally posted by Cyrus King Please read the wikipedia link i posted up and then see what is thought of the man. There were many gullible people in the 50's, and prior to that. THe majority of the people back then couldnt fathom the fact that we were from the same lineage as apes. Out of all the explanations that can be used to describe how casey came up with his answers (whether right or wrong) is the SOLE one that he was "gifted" with powers???? Give me a break I cant even beelive that you would make the assumption that she is actually "gifted" with powers that would "shatter" our beleif system. This woman is a fuckin joke. I watch montel williams when shes on it just to LAUGH at her and her generalized answers. For example. A woman (a stupid one like the rest of the audience was) asked a question about her father who used to be a teacher. "What was he doing in heaven"?.. she asked. Sylvia's answer was "hes up their teaching the children that come into heaven" AHHAHAHHHAHAHA... What a CROCK OF SHIIIIIIIIIIIIITE!!!!!!! Or how about this one "Sylvia.. i was driving my car one day and a bullet flew into the back area of my car where my daughter was sitting. It should have hit her head but it didnt. Later that day.. my little daughter said she saw something when the window shattered.. she said she saw an....." And before the woman could finish her comment Sylvia says "An angel" And the woman starts to get teary eyed and says "yes.... an angel.... thank you " AHHAHHAHAHAHHAH.... honestly... humans are so dumb. No wonder religion has survived so long.

You didn't answer my question. Would you or would you not go yourself and see whether she was for real or not? I personally believe u wouldn't because if she was for real, which you at the moment can't disprove, it would shatter your current view. The one thing I really don't like about you Cyrus is the fact that you believe you're right on EVERYTHING and that anyone who disagrees with you is less of an intellect or a moron. Until you can disprove any of these examples I formerly listed, stop ridiculing them as frauds. Look at the universe and see just how complex it is and you really believe that this all happened by chance? By everything just magically falling into place? To believe in the Big Bang Theory is just as crazy as believing in a God then. Please show me how you can turn nothing into something. Please Cyrus. Maybe you know something we all don't and hold the key the life.

I'm not going to argue anymore on this issue. I don't really care what anyone believes in. But I just as I see faults within traditional religious belief systems I see many faults in atheist belief systems as well. When it all comes down to it, everyone chooses what they believe in, hopefully based on things they've seen in the world and their own research and not based on being born into a system of belief and blindly accepting it. But in the end, it all about having faith.

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Originally posted by kabelicious Alright, let me put on my scientist cap for a second and give you the science behind "love". Ahem.... "Attraction" (aka the beginning of love) starts when your phermones interact with someone else's. Chemically, when you're a compatible match with someone, you just feel it - this tingle, heightened senses, and your pulse speeds up. This is due to this chemical reaction from your body to theirs. As for the butterflies, when you are attracted to someone, your body releases serotonin and another chemical which gives a feeling of elation as well as a "hungry" feeling in your stomach (hence, the butterflies). This explains why one person and not the other as far as attraction goes....love, however, why you love one person yet not another....perhaps because this attraction dosen't stick or isn't as deeply felt. *shrug* In my experience, the "attraction" phase when I first meet someone I've dated seriously is like a tidal wave - you feel all warm and gooey inside and it dosen't go away when you're with them - the "schoolgirl" syndrome. The butterflies never seem to stop and a mere touch can send me into orbit. That's the good stuff. As opposed to those I've just dated a few times which is more like a stiff breeze on the beach and a sense of wicked fun. And Part two - Why I (a scientist) am Agnostic Reason One: I firmly believe there is something out there. If you doubt this, do me favor and try this experiment. Go out to the woods - somewhere remote where human beings do not dwell often. Find a nice, open valley or a good scenic spot and hunker down. Listen and look around you. Think of all the miracles that had to occur to get a single celled organism to branch out and become the uncountable multitudes of life you see teeming around you. One little cell (created by chance from primordial gases and atoms) and we have all this because of it. Science still cannot explain what sparked that change and, until they can, I believe something greater exists. Nature holds such a power within it - there is a presence there that creeps up on me when I'm in the deep woods or ocean that dosen't occur when I venture forth into a church. And if you've ever been on an Indian burial mound at night (I have) or to some of the more ancient graveyards (double me), you can feel it too. Reason Two: Fate exists. Too many times in my life has there been something more out there that just WHAM! and changes my life entirely. It might not be the best thing at first but it can lead to it. Coincidence I thought at first but nope, there is such a thing as fate. THe more you fight against it, the worse things can turn out - better to just nudge a little and let life take you where it will. It also comes down to I guess what you feel is the point of life on this earth. Are we here to transcend to a higher plane of existence or are we just "here"? Is there a point to being good or bad if there's no hell? Most righteous religion followers I know are always trying to better both themselves and those around them - which isn't a bad thing. I believe that we're here to learn and be the best we can be but, at the same time, I don't intend to spend my life in a cubicle. I don't care if I'm not the wealthiest person in the world as long as I know my life has been full and rich with good people, places, and times. Let people learn from you and you from them and making people smile is the thing I love to do best. Laughter is pure light in my mind.

Amen

quote:

Originally posted by Jem_hadar whuts the chaos theroy again? That Baki (trancechaos) controls everything in the known 'verse ?

Chaos theory is basically a way to quantify randomness (mathematically finding order in what seems completely random). This is used to try and explain how the simplest thing can produce something very large. Ex: how a butterfly's flutter could cause a hurricane on other side of world, etc...

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Originally posted by Chris T. Dot You didn't answer my question. Would you or would you not go yourself and see whether she was for real or not? I personally believe u wouldn't because if she was for real, which you at the moment can't disprove, it would shatter your current view. The one thing I really don't like about you Cyrus is the fact that you believe you're right on EVERYTHING and that anyone who disagrees with you is less of an intellect or a moron. Until you can disprove any of these examples I formerly listed, stop ridiculing them as frauds. Look at the universe and see just how complex it is and you really believe that this all happened by chance? By everything just magically falling into place? To believe in the Big Bang Theory is just as crazy as believing in a God then. Please show me how you can turn nothing into something. Please Cyrus. Maybe you know something we all don't and hold the key the life.

going to see Sylvia brown is as pathetic and useless as calling JOJO's Pyschic alliance or actaully paying "psychic" to see your future! lol

What examples??? That Sylvia might be right?? The fact that she hasnt proven anything extraordinary is enough evidence to disprove her entirely. She is a fraud that feeds off the minds of gullible superstitious idiots around the world. Not only that.. she was pimping her new book about ancient mysteries and how aliens built the pyramids. That right there was enough for me seeing that i studied the Egyptians and the techniques that the EGYPTIANS used to build their monuments. Id rather take my professor's teachings seriously than some non-phd opportunist "psychic" that some how knows this.

She even said that california was going to fall into the ocean in the year 2000..


Your questions about the universe positioned in a straw mna fallacy context. Its to complex to understand the workings of the universe and how it is constantly expanding and will eventualy contract in billions of years from now. But thanks to science.. its quest is trying to figure this out. You see.. science uses something called "evidence" to help explain its theories. Religion just states supernatural bullshit that people still beleive to this day.

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I'm not going to argue anymore on this issue. I don't really care what anyone believes in. But I just as I see faults within traditional religious belief systems I see many faults in atheist belief systems as well. When it all comes down to it, everyone chooses what they believe in, hopefully based on things they've seen in the world and their own research and not based on being born into a system of belief and blindly accepting it. But in the end, it all about having faith.

Science has more validation than religion. Religion is just.. you know what.. i cant take religion anymore. I still cant fathom how people in the year 2005 can beleive and follow these absurd ancient cult books.

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