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Originally posted by The17sss He doesn't believe in the premise that Obama's economic strategy will work to begin with, so he wants that to fail,

That doesn't make sense. I didn't believe George W. Bush's strategy in the War on Terror would succeed, but that certainly didn't mean I hoped it failed. I simply did what everyone in the opposition does and advocated an alternate course of action, and prayed for the best when it wasn't listened to.

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Originally posted by The17sss One of the most brilliant, huh? lol.

Did you miss the fact that he got a black man elected President 40 years after Martin Luther King, Jr. was shot for advocating equal rights?

Or maybe the fact that he revolutionized the grassroots ground game.

Sometimes I wonder if you pay attention to anything not talked about by Rush or Ed Morrisey.

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Originally posted by The17sss While the private sector wealth has dropped like 25% since November, all the Democrats can do is cry about Rush on a daily basis.

Um, I think they've done a great deal more than that. Surely you can see this, no?

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Carville: “Your opponent can’t hit back when you have your fist in his face.” So much for changing the tone in Washington.

Perhaps I'm wrong... but Carville doesn't have a job in this administration, does he?

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Originally posted by The17sss This is a cruel joke.

Why? Because you don't believe it, or because you don't like it?

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First of all, how do you measure a "saved" job.

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This assessment is based on simulations of Moody's Economy.com macroeconomic model system. Assuming no added fiscal stimulus except for that provided by the automatic stabilizers already in place, real GDP would decline for eight straight quarters, falling by a stunning 4.2% in 2009 and another 2.2% in 2010. This would be more severe than the early 1980s recessions, which, combined, were the worst since the Depression. Some 8 million jobs would be lost from the peak in employment at the start of 2008 to the bottom in employment by late 2010, pushing the unemployment rate to well over 11% by early 2011. The House stimulus plan would not forestall a sizable decline of 2.3% in real GDP in 2009, but it would ensure that real GDP returns to its previous peak by the end of 2010 (see Table 3). The fiscal stimulus limits the peak-to-trough decline in jobs to some 5 million, and the unemployment rate peaks at nearly 9% in early 2010. With the stimulus, the unemployment rate falls back to its full employment rate of close to 5% by early 2013. Without the stimulus, the unemployment rate rises to well over 11% by mid-2010 and ends 2012 at a still-extraordinarily high near 8% (see Chart 7).

http://www.economy.com/mark-zandi/d...Plan_012109.pdf

In answer to your question, from economists.

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I like that nuanced choice of words- "create or save". We can see the plummeting number of private sector jobs (almost 700,000 in January), but I'm still waiting on those "saved jobs" numbers. Do government jobs fit in there? Is that what he's referring to? Because, none of them are losing work.

Nope - they're talking about stimulating demand in the private sector (something Republicans have yet to grasp the urgency of) in order to increase GDP (and hence profits) in order to keep companies from downsizing payrolls.

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That whole line about "the largest middle class tax cut in history" is such bullshit. Who believes this?

Well I thought everybody acknowledged this, but evidently you don't? Fair enough.

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Originally posted by Lebezniatnikov That doesn't make sense. I didn't believe George W. Bush's strategy in the War on Terror would succeed, but that certainly didn't mean I hoped it failed. I simply did what everyone in the opposition does and advocated an alternate course of action, and prayed for the best when it wasn't listened to.

It does make sense. How do you not get it? If he believes Obama's economic policies will lead to economic ruin, saying he wants them to fail would indicate that he wants economic success. And it's more than an indication because he's stated that point. What am I missing with your personal example? If you believed that W's Iraq war strategy would lead to a failure for America, you wouldn't want those policies to fail in place of an alternative in which you believed in?

And, he did offer an alternative course of action in his WSJ op-ed... which of course would not be accepted, but nevertheless one was offered.

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Originally posted by Lebezniatnikov Did you miss the fact that he got a black man elected President 40 years after Martin Luther King, Jr. was shot for advocating equal rights?

He is the one who got Obama elected? I would say that Axelrod and the gullible American people as a whole were bigger contributers to this success.

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Originally posted by The17sss If you believed that W's Iraq war strategy would lead to a failure for America, you wouldn't want those policies to fail in place of an alternative in which you believed in?

No, I'd want them to succeed (proving me wrong) for the greater good of the country.

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Originally posted by Lebezniatnikov Perhaps I'm wrong... but Carville doesn't have a job in this administration, does he?

You mean, an actual job with a W-2? No, but he is part of the morning conference call with Emanuel and the others to stragegize against an unelected private citizen... exactly the same way he worked with Clinton in his infamous "war room" sessions with Baglea.

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Originally posted by The17sss He is the one who got Obama elected? I would say that Axelrod and the gullible American people as a whole were bigger contributers to this success.

Axelrod? Plouffe was the architect of the entire campaign, Axelrod was just a strategist. Axelrod himself credited Plouffe for running the most magnificent campaign in the history of presidential politics.

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Originally posted by The17sss You mean, an actual job with a W-2? No, but he is part of the morning conference call with Emanuel and the others to stragegize against an unelected private citizen... exactly the same way he worked with Clinton in his infamous "war room" sessions with Baglea.

So in other words, he's a consultant and not part of the Administration?

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Originally posted by Lebezniatnikov No, I'd want them to succeed (proving me wrong) for the greater good of the country.

Start with his premise. All of the supposed theories of the spending bill's potential as laid out by Obama already don't matter... because he rejects the premise from the start that this spending on top of borrowing money we don't have is not the way to economic success.

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I don't want economic failure. I don't want the kind of pain and suffering that we have now to get any worse. It's the exact opposite. I don't want this economy to get worse just so people learn the truth about Obama. It may take that, I hope not, because if it takes that, we may not have enough power left to gain control of our economy the way it was. But I don't want the economy to fail. I don't want people losing their jobs and being kicked out of their houses. I don't want people going on welfare and unemployment just for people to realize what a mistake they made with Obama. I want Obama to fail, not the country. I want Obama to fail in being successful with his economic plan. Now, if Barack Obama all of a sudden came out and said, "You know what? I think we need to do something here in the midst of this recession. I'm going to resend my capital gains tax increase and I'm going to suspend capital gains. And, you know what, I think we can really improve the economic circumstance if I would cut the corporate tax rate in half, and maybe just suspend capital gains for three months. Maybe have a tax holiday on FICA, Social Security withholding." Well, I tell you, I would become Barack Obama's biggest cheerleader in this country. If he actually proposed ideas to jump-start this economy, so there isn't any more economic pain and we can bottom out at some point and start building this back. But, folks, his plan doesn't do that. Government spending does not elevate the private sector. It does not stimulate the private sector. It does not in any way, shape, manner, or form expand the private sector. But hear me, and hear me loud. Look at me. I don't want the economy to fail. That's why I'm sticking my neck out here. I actually care about the people who are seeing their financial lives damaged and, in some cases, ruined. I'm the one, among many on my side, who are truly worried about this. Some of you are hoping that the words from Obama's mouth will magically bring you back. It ain't going to happen. I do not want economic collapse. This is it for me. This is enough. It's got to stop. The problem is this administration has no interest in it stopping right now.

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Originally posted by Lebezniatnikov Axelrod? Plouffe was the architect of the entire campaign, Axelrod was just a strategist. Axelrod himself credited Plouffe for running the most magnificent campaign in the history of presidential politics.

Well, if that's true, I can't argue with that line of brilliance, because it truly was an amazing campaign.

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So in other words, he's a consultant and not part of the Administration?

What are you driving at? Yes he is a consultant... so?