quote:

Originally posted by occrider I so wanna give up .... sooooo wanna give up. Nessa, he wasn't speaking ill about your illness. He was saying don't place blind faith in everything the bible says, especially literal interpretations. In as much as it says homosexuals should be put to death, it also says those who have "blemishes" or infirmaties are somehow "less" than those who have none. This is especially applicable to you, in as much as the other passages are applicable to homosexuals. As a matter of fact YOU quoted the bible saying homosexuality made those people inferior, just like MisterOpus quoted the bible saying that those who are ill are inferior. And YES there are plenty of homosexuals that visit this forum that would take offense. Yet the difference, Nessa, was that MisterOpus was doing it to make a point rather than really believing in it, and you had the audacity to be offended by behaviour that can be likend to your own. I'm sorry but the hypocracy of the whole situation doesn't really engender much sympathy in me.

Occrider spoke well for my case, so I won't add much else. I will only say that I meant no harm to you in regards to your illness when referring to the Leviticus passages. The entire point of my post was to demonstrate exactly what Occ has described. If you take one quote out of the entire book of Leviticus to demonstrate your point of view, then you must take the rest of those laws laid down to the followers of Moses as well, and many of those laws are quite unpleasant and pretty out there by today's standards (including the one on disabilities). IOW, you need to be careful what you pick and choose out of the Bible to assert your views. Many o' Christians have a tendency to do this, and fail to understand the full context of those passages from which they decisively pluck out for their own affirmations.

Again, I believe you missed my point entirely. Nevertheless, I am truly sorry you have been offended. Just please understand that was not my intention when I was making my previous point on Leviticus passages.

___________________
Whence September dusk grows crisper still,
with leaves all crimson conquered,
I yearn to shout,
and dance about,
and stick pickles in my honker...

DAmn this thread! Damn this thread straight to hell (or to kingdom of Hades or whatever you might believe in). I haven't gotten anything done at all today. I've just farted around this thread the whole day.

But boy was it a learning experience!

Today I have picked up that in the first thousands of years God was an extremely grumpy person with all his "smithe thee" attitude. Then he most probably was a drunk as well.

Here's why:
He threw out the first woman he created who then fornicated with a shitloads of deamons or something. He got furiated with her but apparently let her go on with her misdemeanor if, and only if, he could kill 100 of her deamon spawns each day and render her powerless against children who had their, somewhat excessive, skin removed around their willies. Other people and women was still fair game. Sounds like a drunken joke to me.

Then he got in a better mood. Why? He got laid. He obviously had a son which means he had to get laid. Maybe not in the phsyical hard core sense we indulge in our selves but maybe in one of those clean divine ways or something.

/end of crappy joke

Seriously, it's been a very interesting thread. Kudos to everybody involved, you know who you are


Oops, and now my working day has ended. See you all tomorrow

___________________
www.assortedtrance.com
www.facebook.com/assortedtrance
http://www.soundcloud.com/johannilsson
http://www.di.fm

quote:

Originally posted by DrUg_Tit0 Now, Nessa, I am sorry for your illness, but you have to accept that the bible was written by men who were influenced by the social standards of their time. So yes, people at the time thought sick people were less worthy, and it reflected itself in the bible. Now, nobody is attacking your beliefs as a christian, but you must accept that the bible doesn't make any sense if it is taken literally, especially the old testament. People did once take it literally, but science has proven so many of their beliefs were wrong. Like the firmament god created to seperate high waters from low waters. Well, since the sky looked blue, someone got the idea that above the sky there is a huge body of water surrounding the earth, and that the sky is a solid transparent shell.

Really,I don't need pity. That won't get me anywhere. :/ No,no I mentioned before you aren't attacking my beliefs. It's just when people take the subject of illness,especially referring to mine, that just kills me because it's a really sensitive subject right now.

quote:

And let me ask you another thing. How do you know the bible is true yet you know that Kuran isn't? What makes you think Jesus is real god, but Muhammed was just a guy who wanted power and added a bunch false information in the bible? What makes you think that the jews are doing a blasphemy by taking out the whole new testament out of the bible? Well, I'll tell you what. Your upbringing and lack of education in history of religion. If you admit that the bible is not a 100% certain historical document, it will not make you a less of a christian. It is simply something you must adopt in order for things to make sense. You keep saying that people who took away something from the bible will loose god's blessing. But people did do that at the Council of Nicaea. They decided what goes in and what goes out. And prior to that, the bible was not a unified book. It was a colection of religious scriptures. You may say that nothing has been taken out, but not everything has been put in either. On the other hand, Muhammed added a whole bunch of new ideas to the bible, so would you say he lost god's blessings too? Billions of people followed his new version. Did he lie? If he did, all the muslims are infidels who follow false prophets. Did god really speak to him? Then christianity is a false religion. You must realize that things are not that black and white as they seem to you.

I don't know a whole lot about the Kuran(sp?) I don't think I've made any remarks saying the Kuran isn't true..I don't believe Jesus is the real God, I believe Jesus is the real God's son.

On the other hand,what makes people think the Bible is wrong the Kuran is correct? Or, why do muslims believe Jesus wasn't the son of God,but only a prophet? I have no idea as to why. But, they do. I'm not going to tell them they can't believe it.

quote:

On another note, I'm sorry if I am too inquisitive, but I'm just wondering what's that illness you have?

It's a stomach and a bladder disorder due to my back,and they are thinking a few other factors,but they still don't know exactly what I have,and how to treat/cure it..:/

___________________
~Nessa

quote:

Originally posted by MisterOpus1 Occrider spoke well for my case, so I won't add much else. I will only say that I meant no harm to you in regards to your illness when referring to the Leviticus passages. The entire point of my post was to demonstrate exactly what Occ has described. If you take one quote out of the entire book of Leviticus to demonstrate your point of view, then you must take the rest of those laws laid down to the followers of Moses as well, and many of those laws are quite unpleasant and pretty out there by today's standards (including the one on disabilities). IOW, you need to be careful what you pick and choose out of the Bible to assert your views. Many o' Christians have a tendency to do this, and fail to understand the full context of those passages from which they decisively pluck out for their own affirmations.

I didn't think you meant to harm me, just please bare in mind that speaking about an illness is an extremely touchy subject for me.
You posted the link,that said God is pretty much neutral about sexuality, and I just posted it so you could see he isn't.

quote:

Again, I believe you missed my point entirely. Nevertheless, I am truly sorry you have been offended. Just please understand that was not my intention when I was making my previous point on Leviticus passages.

Yes, I understand.

___________________
~Nessa

quote:

Originally posted by MrSquirrel Amendment I Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances. So which part of it were you referring to? MrS

With freedom of speech,comes responsibility. It's not responsible to be knocking ones belief,so to say. That would be what I was referring to.

___________________
~Nessa

Nellie read this: http://www.meta-library.net/intro/evolu-body.html

it's about evolution and god, that it doesn't need to contradict each other.... not much text either...

quote:

Recently, the Vatican Observatory in conjunction with the Berkeley-based Center for Theology and the Natural Sciences held a conference on the issue of evolution to which they invited theologians, philosophers, and scientists from around the world. Here, Christian participants overwhelming agreed that evolution was not in conflict with Christian faith, and that on the contrary it could be seen as the way in which God goes about being creative within the world. For these believers, an understanding of the processes of evolution could indeed enhance their faith.

This thread needs to die

Agreed. But I'd like this to be put on it's gravestone:

"Reason must be deluded, blinded, and destroyed. Faith must trample underfoot all reason, sense, and understanding, and whatever it sees must be put out of sight...know nothing but the Word of God."

-Saint Augustine

___________________
Whence September dusk grows crisper still,
with leaves all crimson conquered,
I yearn to shout,
and dance about,
and stick pickles in my honker...

I really do believe the ability of humankind to hang onto defunct vices far past their "best used by" date is directly rooted in religion; or at least I would be blissfully happy with that dogmatic belief.

Religion used to be able to prevail over common information and logic. I mean how else were you supposed to explain phenomena like gravity and light? Religion was the obvious answer, the insurmountable proof that points to some higher being that can just make some shit up every time a question is asked; or better yet, draw from popular belief of the day. The problem is, religion and its teachings is becoming a dated vice. It makes no attempts to revise its teachings, even as popular cultural values have turned away from it.

Science, no longer in its infancy, and advancing at a rapid pace compared to religion (or rather the "science" of religion "creationism") simply walks all over religion and its ridiculously old books that are sexist and racist. Science has proof and methodology, all religion has to offer is dogmatic beliefs and absolutism.

There isn't necessarily anything wrong with having dogmatic belief or "blind faith." It just looks ridiculous when you try to juxtapose science and religion by putting them in the same arena. Science is the result of being raised and living in that arena, religion (in science's eye, and hence, in that arena) is the perpetuation of ignorance and fallatic logic.

I personally haven't totally discounted the existance(s) of supreme being(s). I have however, completely discounted christianity (or any religion that involves "The Bible"), Scientology and Islam. I would say all religions but I don't know "all religions" so that would be hasty.

I believe that if their is a "supernatural" force at work in our universe that has spawned these many phenomena it will eventually be explained in terms of science. Science can never be proven wrong in its own arena as it continually abandons theories that have been invalidated. Of modern history, newtonian science and general relativity have been abandoned as they fail to accurately describe the universe. Science evolves just as the evolutionary theory conjectures we do.

___________________

quote:

Venus: And there are troops of savage giraffes whose necks are on fire, like the starry ejaculations of fireworks in the very pale sky of childhood ... Venus: Enter, enter here - men of all kinds and races, victims of reality! You who have the thirst for dreams. ... Venus: You, on life's bitter road, drenched in hard sunlight who have the thirst that once more the dark marvel of dreams...

Holy shit guys, I leave the political forums for a week or two and this thread evolved into six pages? I thought we would have known from previous arguments with WoahNellie that she won't budge on her views, no matter how many graphs, articles, books, any sort of proof you show her. Remember the Ten Commandments being placed outside the courthouse thread? I do believed that went to six pages as well.

Many absolutely excellent points made in this thread. Shame I joined in so late! Everything I would have said has already been said! There's no point to repeat things to deaf ears.

___________________
aka Tits McGee
aka Chesty LaRue
aka Busty St. Claire

quote:

Originally posted by WhoaNellie1487 Really,I don't need pity. That won't get me anywhere. :/ No,no I mentioned before you aren't attacking my beliefs. It's just when people take the subject of illness,especially referring to mine, that just kills me because it's a really sensitive subject right now.

Well, you see it's not that any one of us here thinks that you are less worthy because of your illness, as none of us actually takes the bible's words as a literal truth. However, if you were to take literally every word that is said in the bible, you would unfortunately come to such a conclusion. That is, of course if you read the old testament. Since the new testament sometimes mentions that the old laws shold be neglected and that god loves everyone. Now that I think of it, I'm wondering why the old testament is included in the christian bible in the first place, as it preaches a totally different philosophy than the old one.

I don't know a whole lot about the Kuran(sp?) I don't think I've made any remarks saying the Kuran isn't true..I don't believe Jesus is the real God, I believe Jesus is the real God's son.

Well, if you think the bible is true, then it is obvious that kuran isn't, since they are contradicting on many issues. But if you want to read kuran, you can check out:http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/quran/index.html. It's the same site that pointed out problems in the bible, but it does contain the whole kuran. I guess you won't have many objections to them bashing kuran, and if you do, just read the verses without reading the sidenotes, as the verses are correct. Besides, it's not very long either, not nearly as long as the bible.

quote:

On the other hand,what makes people think the Bible is wrong the Kuran is correct? Or, why do muslims believe Jesus wasn't the son of God,but only a prophet? I have no idea as to why. But, they do. I'm not going to tell them they can't believe it.

Well, it's pretty simple why they believe so. Because of the environment they were raised in. Ask yourself, if you were raised in a muslim country and instructed to read kuran and if you were told it's the only truth, would you believe in bible? The simple and most likely answer is no. Now, why did the christians from that area of the world accept Muhammed's teachings in the first place? Well, although the large cities were mostly christian, the local arab nomadic tribes still had a pagan polytheistic religion. Muhammed basically merged the two religions and created a new monotheistic religion with many elements of the arab beliefs and rituals. It was a rather agressive belief system, but acceptable to both parties, and it resulted in Muhammed's forces conquering many arabic lands. The expansion to the north was temporarily ended by Charlemagne and the Byzantine empire (East Roman empire). Arabic lands were pacified for a while, until Turks came. They were also a nomadic pagan tribe and they adopted islam very quickly. They started a rapid expansion and among other things conquered the Byzantine empire. They also closed the trade routes and imposed severe taxes on silk, so the europeans were forced to circumnavigate Turkey. Hence the european naval expansion and the discovery of america. Heh, I got carried away a bit, but there's your history lesson for the day

quote:

It's a stomach and a bladder disorder due to my back,and they are thinking a few other factors,but they still don't know exactly what I have,and how to treat/cure it..:/

Well, I hope they'll find out what's wrong and that you'll be better soon.

___________________
1+1=10

Last edited by DrUg_Tit0 on Feb-13-2004 at 13:08